Boarding Barn - dry paddocks no picking all winter....

[firsthorse]

First post! I really need some input from other horse people that are used to boarding barns. I have my first horse at a boarding barn. First thing I want to say is that I have looked at other barns and taken lessons at a few of them and they all seems to have major down sides.

The barn I am at has nice turn out in the summer which is the main thing that is important to me and quiet. My horses passion is grazing as it is for all horses.
This winter I have watched the dry paddock turn out as it slowly built up with more and more poop! Many of the larger pasture fields are not used in the winter so a couple are open but with many horses and little rotation my horse is in the dry paddock most of the time despite my efforts to get rotation.

Back to the main issue! the poop. The dry paddocks are approximately 30 by 80 and if you walk in there you can barely find an area to walk where there is not a poo. Horses when fed during the day have the hay thrown on top of the poo because there is no alternative. This area is much worst when it rains or after snow melts as you can imagine.
I have tried talking to the manager but he says this is normal and that the area will be dragged in the spring that winter is just like this. I am at the point of dreaming of keeping my horse at home one day just so I can decide on the cleaning standards! also the inside outside stall - the inside is well done but the outside when picked is done very badly and again hay on shit. Again I talked to manager and he acted like I was making a big deal of nothing.

I get the impression no one wants to pick the dry paddocks due to being too tired by the time the stalls are cleaned.
Profit being already low and no wanting to loose profit to hire more help.

What are you thoughts? IS THIS NORMAL? the odd thing is none of the other boarders seem to be bothered. I feel bad for the horses in general. This is not a really high end barn price wise more in the middle.

None of the fields are picked and they are dragged about twice a year.
In the summer things seem a lot better but again there is still poop build up but there are more fields so it’s spread out.
Moving my horse is not that easy as I like my riding instructor and have not found a barn with such nice pasture

[halt]

Normal here.

In the winter, the manure freezes right into the ground and is almost impossible to pick up - unless you want to break pitchforks and spend twice or thrice as long as you would normally on it, it’s simply a war of attrition… and that time spent wrestling with frozen manure is usually better spent on more pressing needs. You’d be surprised how much the cold/winter affects daily routine - it really slows down even simple tasks - IE in the summer it could take you 20m to turnout 15 horses… in the winter it might take you 45m-1hr… Everything is affected and compounded by the cold and even the simplest jobs take longer in the winter… so it becomes about maximizing and prioritizing the most important jobs first, which is: horses see adequate turnout, stalls cleaned, waters topped of, barn cleaned, and horse care aspects like blanketing and other wintry needs are met. I am not kidding when I say winter throws a major wrench in an average worker’s normal timeline/routine… it can take an hour to blanket up everyone for the cold… Nevermind water in the winter, which is usually a whole 'nother ordeal and also takes twice as long as it does in the summer…

One of the things I did as a BM was, if we had an unseasonably warm day where we could in theory extract the manure without needing an ice-pick and a small archaeological arsenal of tools, I would have the girls take quick runs through each paddock and scoop what had defrosted… Otherwise, those suckers stayed buried under snow & ice until the spring, where we usually had a good picking party the first week of spring and then dragged the rest.

I suggest you try a few days of working outside in the winter… I doubt it is a “too tired/lazy to do anything after stalls” issue, so much as it is a question of maximizing a worker’s efficiency and also, having more pressing things to do. I’d prefer to have workers work on projects like fixing fences, cobwebbing barn, sanitizing buckets, dragging or raking indoor, reorganizing any clutter, “winter indoors projects” type jobs especially on the very cold days where no one wants to be outside… Trust me there is always plenty to do on a worker’s plate that is invisible to an onlooker’s eye, although boarders rarely see the big picture.

If all else is good - the care, turnout time, water always topped off and horse always has hay… I would consider this a NBD and just one of the cold realities of winter in the NE.

[red_mares]

I think you need to make your dream of bringing your horse home a reality.

Doing the work yourself has a remarkable way of changing your perspective on what is & is not important.

[IronwoodFarm]

I don’t know what your contract says, but it sounds like you are asking them to change their system. I am not saying their system is right or not, but it is their system. When I boarded and I wanted something done beyond the contract/system, I either paid extra for it or I did it myself with the BO’s permission. In one case it involved fixing the electric fencing for the turnout pasture. Again, not saying it was right, but it did get the problem fixed to my satisfaction. I seriously can’t imagine that the BO would care if you cleaned the run and dumped the manure on the manure pile. That’s probably your solution.

[Jealoushe]

Why don`t you spend an afternoon picking the paddock?

Or hang some hay nets for your horse when you are there?

[firsthorse]

There are no “girls” to do quick runs or go to the outside dry paddocks. The dry paddocks I am talking about are the outside time the horses get. So they are standing in poo all day outside. There are plenty of defrosted days but the poo stays there. They are too tired due to there only being ONE worker five days a week. Weekends two workers.

[firsthorse]

I do pick my horses stall run out area when I am there. NOTE: this is not the outside dry paddocks I am referring to.

[firsthorse]

@Jealoushe

Why don`t you spend an afternoon picking the paddock?

Or hang some hay nets for your horse when you are there?

The barn manager won’t let you use a hay net.

[firsthorse]

@IronwoodFarm

I don’t know what your contract says, but it sounds like you are asking them to change their system. I am not saying their system is right or not, but it is their system. When I boarded and I wanted something done beyond the contract/system, I either paid extra for it or I did it myself with the BO’s permission. In one case it involved fixing the electric fencing for the turnout pasture. Again, not saying it was right, but it did get the problem fixed to my satisfaction. I seriously can’t imagine that the BO would care if you cleaned the run and dumped the manure on the manure pile. That’s probably your solution.

The main issue here it the outside runs where all the horses go not my horses private stall. This is serious poop build up. Two horses a day pooping x month after month with no removing of the poo.

[beau159]

I think it depends where you live. You mentioned snow, so I’m assuming you board somewhere where you get “winter”.

Up here in the tundra (North Dakota), the poop stays where it drops because it’s frozen on the ground. The hay feeder gets moved around a little bit, but they build up poop wherever they are standing and eating. We don’t bother with cleaning anything up until late spring / early summer when the manure is cleaned up and hauled out. Too many other important things to do before that.

Personally, I guess I would not be worried in your situation. It sounds like they are doing a good job of the stalls, which I would want too. Runs are often messy in the winter as the weather usually just doesn’t cooperate (again, depending on the climate you live in).

As you said, there’s always going to be a downside to every barn. If you are otherwise happy (good pasture, good trainer, etc), I would just do as you have been, and clean up your horse’s run when you are there.

[halt]

@firsthorse

There are no “girls” to do quick runs or go to the outside dry paddocks. The dry paddocks I am talking about are the outside time the horses get. So they are standing in poo all day outside. There are plenty of defrosted days but the poo stays there. They are too tired due to there only being ONE worker five days a week. Weekends two workers.

So this is a management problem, NOT a worker problem.

Do you think that this poor person spends all day twiddling their thumbs, doing nothing? It is an all day affair to take care of multiple horses in the winter. The worker is probably up to their eyeballs in “to-do” tasks. You don’t mention how many horses are at this barn, but if it is a boarding barn the average is 20-30 horses… even 10 horses is too much IMHO for just one person…

[trubandloki]

I agree with @halt on this one (it is winter, the manure is frozen, etc).

@firsthorse where are you in the world? (general vague answer is fine)

Let me tell you about my horses, at home.

All spring, summer and fall I pick my paddocks 2x per day. Pasture gets picked once ever week or at most every other week.
In other words, I like this tidy. I like things manure free.
I have limited space and sticky soil and manure only makes things more yucky.

It is winter now.

I am out there, in the dark after work every night picking paddocks by head lamp until it happens… It being the weather causes picking to be impossible. That is usually snow. I am pretty determined so I go out there with a claw hammer when it is just cold but there is no snow, and spend endless time freeing those darn manure piles from the ground. (I am sure at this point my neighbors think I am nuts.)
Once it gets to the point that I can not pick, the battle is lost until spring. Right now my paddocks look nothing short of disastrous to me. I cringe when I see the mess (when the snow melts off).
Though it looks like an easy fix (with about nine million wheel barrow trips to the manure pile) it is not. What looks like innocent manure piles and manure pile messes every where is a frozen block of mess that I would spend more time trying to free parts of than I would getting anything up.
Take my word for it, I have tried.

Winter sucks.

I also want to comment on the rotation thing you mentioned.

My horses spend all winter in the sacrifice area. No pasture. It (the pasture) looks big and open and inviting to someone who does not have to fix it if it gets ruined. I could see someone wondering why I am not rotating using that space.
I would rather may horses ruin one area (or four if you count their private paddocks) and I have a good pasture to use next year.

Horse care is a balance of things that are not always obvious at a quick glance.

[firsthorse]

@beau159

I think it depends where you live. You mentioned snow, so I’m assuming you board somewhere where you get “winter”.

Up here in the tundra (North Dakota), the poop stays where it drops because it’s frozen on the ground. The hay feeder gets moved around a little bit, but they build up poop wherever they are standing and eating. We don’t bother with cleaning anything up until late spring / early summer when the manure is cleaned up and hauled out. Too many other important things to do before that.

Personally, I guess I would not be worried in your situation. It sounds like they are doing a good job of the stalls, which I would want too. Runs are often messy in the winter as the weather usually just doesn’t cooperate (again, depending on the climate you live in).

As you said, there’s always going to be a downside to every barn. If you are otherwise happy (good pasture, good trainer, etc), I would just do as you have been, and clean up your horse’s run when you are there.

UM! Well maybe I expected too much. I have been reading the forum for a while now and always read people talking about cleaning up horse poo as a major priority. I guess I will have to give some slack now I know it’s normal.

[red_mares]

Per your description, this is a mid level establishment with minimal staff. You have stated the workers are tired from the workload. You seem to think that mucking the paddocks can happen without cost consequences just because you want it to. What you want will require the BO to hire more staff. That will require that your board go up.

You need to adjust your expectations. Contrary to what is often espoused on COTH (or elsewhere) the odds of a horse dying from standing in manure are pretty low. I’ve been to barns where the stalls were cleaned once a week or less, and the horses were healthy and happy. Is ideal? Nope, but they were doing well and weren’t merely surviving.

[PeteyPie]

I don’t think that’s acceptable.

Mine are on a dry lot which is picked daily but I don’t get snow and freezing temps here. However, when I lived in Alaska, people would keep their small (like 12’ x 40’) runs picked when possible. For example, here is a winter photo which I found online of the runs at the Diamond H Ranch, a long-established boarding facility in Anchorage. Clearly it would be different with a snowpack, but I would expect no more poop than this in a winter run.
AF1QipOHCsuKE3LXzuf_3fwdjTbgbdkbtSnZ5P2rUglZ=w314-h168-p-k-no

As far as freezing poop goes, there are ways to maintain a paddock to help clean. One friend of mine used pea gravel in her horse’s run and it was very easy to pick up frozen manure. I’ve heard other people on this forum comment that they use the same.

[IronwoodFarm]

@firsthorse

The main issue here it the outside runs where all the horses go not my horses private stall. This is serious poop build up. Two horses a day pooping x month after month with no removing of the poo.

Well you could organize the other boarders to help if they are bothered as well. Or see if you can get others to chip in for a mid-winter drag. Personally, I am not concerned about frozen manure in the winter. I do get concerned about it the other three seasons of the year when it creates issues with flies.

[firsthorse]

@trubandloki

I agree with @halt on this one (it is winter, the manure is frozen, etc).

@firsthorse where are you in the world? (general vague answer is fine)

Let me tell you about my horses, at home.

All spring, summer and fall I pick my paddocks 2x per day. Pasture gets picked once ever week or at most every other week.
In other words, I like this tidy. I like things manure free.
I have limited space and sticky soil and manure only makes things more yucky.

It is winter now.

I am out there, in the dark after work every night picking paddocks by head lamp until it happens… It being the weather causes picking to be impossible. That is usually snow. I am pretty determined so I go out there with a claw hammer when it is just cold but there is no snow, and spend endless time freeing those darn manure piles from the ground. (I am sure at this point my neighbors think I am nuts.)
Once it gets to the point that I can not pick, the battle is lost until spring. Right now my paddocks look nothing short of disastrous to me. I cringe when I see the mess (when the snow melts off).
Though it looks like an easy fix (with about nine million wheel barrow trips to the manure pile) it is not. What looks like innocent manure piles and manure pile messes every where is a frozen block of mess that I would spend more time trying to free parts of than I would getting anything up.
Take my word for it, I have tried.

Winter sucks.

I also want to comment on the rotation thing you mentioned.

My horses spend all winter in the sacrifice area. No pasture. It (the pasture) looks big and open and inviting to someone who does not have to fix it if it gets ruined. I could see someone wondering why I am not rotating using that space.
I would rather may horses ruin one area (or four if you count their private paddocks) and I have a good pasture to use next year.

Horse care is a balance of things that are not always obvious at a quick glance.

HEE HEE. I enjoyed reading your post! I love the head lamp idea and might well use that in the future
I am in New England. There are plenty of days when it all defrosts and that is when it looks SO bad. Just a swampy mess of shitty sloshy water and new poop.

[firsthorse]

@IronwoodFarm

Well you could organize the other boarders to help if they are bothered as well. Or see if you can get others to chip in for a mid-winter drag. Personally, I am not concerned about frozen manure in the winter. I do get concerned about it the other three seasons of the year when it creates issues with flies.

It’s only frozen about 50% of the time that is the problem.

[halt]

@PeteyPie

I don’t think that’s acceptable.

Mine are on a dry lot which is picked daily but I don’t get snow and freezing temps here. However, when I lived in Alaska, people would keep their small (like 12’ x 40’) runs picked when possible. For example, here is a winter photo which I found online of the runs at the Diamond H Ranch, a long-established boarding facility in Anchorage. Clearly it would be different with a snowpack, but I would expect no more poop than this in a winter run.
AF1QipOHCsuKE3LXzuf_3fwdjTbgbdkbtSnZ5P2rUglZ=w314-h168-p-k-no

As far as freezing poop goes, there are ways to maintain a paddock to help clean. One friend of mine used pea gravel in her horse’s run and it was very easy to pick up frozen manure. I’ve heard other people on this forum comment that they use the same.

It looks like there is no snow on the ground? It certainly doesn’t look like midwinter in that picture.

It’s one thing to scrape it out of a stone-dust paddock. You can’t do that easily when there’s any snow on the ground, and all the stone-dust in the world doesn’t prevent snow accumulation. What happens once there is snow, is that it’s almost impossible to extract, and then horses compact that snow into ice, and then it snows again, and then the horses compact that into ice and you end up having multiple layers that you really can’t realistically just scoop & go with.

I’m with Trubandloki. Last weekend it was just warm enough (30F and sunny) after a week of negative temperatures that I had enough time to wheel out 2 wheelbarrow loads of hay & manure in our filly’s dirt lot, which has compacted stone-dust along the fence-line, BTW.

It took me almost an hour and a half. Normally that kind of work might take me 20m, in and out. The rest of it will have to wait until spring.

[trubandloki]

On those defrosted days I suggest you go out there and attempt to pick it up.

We were in the upper 40s for two consecutive days recently. Lots of sun. All the snow melted. All the visible ice melted. Water running everywhere.

Sure there are individual piles out there that will pick up on those days, the trick is finding them.

You quickly learn that the layering of snow and manure and compaction causes things to stay frozen solid for a very long time. When I do go out there and clean this coming spring I will likely be wearing short sleeves and be all warm and comfy and I will still have a huge sheet of ice (compacted snow) under the layer I get up. Manure is a great insulator.

Add that removing two weeks (or two months, or four months) of manure that is freshly thawed is a tedious and hard task.

One of the things that delays my ability to mass clean my paddocks is that everything is wet. The track from the paddocks to the manure pile using the tractor involves the lawn and several no driveway areas. Before I can scrape with the tractor I have to let those areas dry from the mess that spring makes. This is also true right now, with the weird winter thaws.

Winter is tough.

If this manure in the paddock is an issue that bothers you that much it might be best to shop around for another barn. Just know that there is no perfect barn (not even at home) and the next barn might have a different issue. You have to pick what issues you are willing to deal with (and then weigh those with your available budget).

BTW, congratulations on your first horse. So exciting.

(Edit to add - @halt posted while I was typing and said basically the same thing.)