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Boarding Barn - dry paddocks no picking all winter....

Off Course
#61

If the ground is frozen, it’s going to be pretty useless to try to push it with the tractor (or possibly risk breaking something on the tractor).

If the ground is thawed/soft enough to be able to push, then it’s thawed enough for the tractor to leave big tire marks behind. Plus, you may have soft material on top, but still have frozen stuff underneath that doesn’t move easily, and so you end up pushing the soft stuff around that the horse just sinks into anyway. Or possibly make the ground even more slippery for the horse (with the frozen underpan) – rather than just leaving it intact and undisturbed.

It’s not as “easy” as it sounds.

Not to mention, it sounds like there are 17 runs that the one person would have to do? (If I remember the details earlier in the thread correctly.)

It’s “normal” in my neck of the woods that you just don’t mess with the corrals or pens until the spring / early summer when you haul all the manure out. And even then, you still aren’t going to get the ground perfectly smooth when using larger equipment that is necessary (tractors, bobcats, etc).

10 Likes
#62

No there are not 17 runs there are a couple of 30x80 approx. runs and a few fields that are used in the winter. I am referring to the long runs 30x80.

#63

Normal here in ohio too- if it’s too wet/frozen/etc to drag with the tractor, it sits. We are quite welcome to pick it for ourselves. Never had a problem and never bothered to do it. I have an issue with gross stalls, but dry lots, it’s expected.

8 Likes
#64

they do have to throw it on wet soggy poop soaked mud as there is no dry area once the snow thaws which keeps happening all winter. Freeze/thaw. I am talking outside sacrifice paddocks again. During the day they need some hay.

#65

Short answer: because they DON’T WANT TO. Seriously. They have a system that works for them.

How about an analogy?

You, firsthorse, iron and fold your undies out of the wash. It takes some time, and some equipment, but having that nice smooth wrinkle free fabric is just THAT important to you. So you’re willing to spend that time, and the money for the equipment, and perhaps miss out on some other things sometimes–just so you have have that nicely ironed and folded stuff.

Your boyfriend, fhb, is perfect in every way. He treats you well, is smart and funny, and is nice to look at. There’s just one problem–he bundles up his briefs when they come out of the dryer and YOURS TOO, when he does the wash (yes, see, he’s perfect…a man who does laundry!!) and just shoves them in the drawer. The wrinkles! It’s awful. You asked him sweetly if he wouldn’t mind ironing and folding, but he said no.

What are your options? Well, you can continue to harp on fhb. Every time you see him, complain about the wrinkles. Complain to all your friends. Focus on the negative. Three guesses about what will happen–do you think that will be effective? Do you think you’ll have a boyfriend for long?

Or, you could do all the laundry (or at least your stuff) yourself. Do it to your standards. Maybe even do his! Who knows, maybe you’ll convert him to the iron and fold side of things!

Or, you could shrug and ignore it. Focus on all the wonderful, amazing things that fhb does.

Or, you could bribe him. Maybe you can bake his favorite cookies? Watch his favorite movie? Engage in his favorite…uh…activity? :lol:

Or, you can decide that you really just CAN’T be with a guy who can’t understand and appreciate the importance of ironing and folding. You dump him. Your next guy will know the Right Way to handle underwear! (But he also might not be quite so nice and funny and handsome.)

Yeah, we’re talking about two different kinds of relationships, but it’s still compromising. It’s still figuring out what’s really important to you. It’s still communicating.

Your barn has a method that works for them. Doesn’t sound like they’re going to change because you come along and make noise. If you harp on them, there’s a good chance you’ll be asked to leave, because the barn owners will realize they just don’t provide the services that you’d like. If you TRULY believe that their management of this issue is dangerous, then give your 30 days notice and board check and leave today–if they are maintaining a dangerous facility, this isn’t the only problem, and your horse needs to be somewhere else.

If this issue is THAT important to you, leave. Or offer to pay some $$ if they’ll clean regularly. Or clean it yourself. Yeah, it’s hard work–that’s one of the reasons it hasn’t been done.

11 Likes
#66

This thread started with me asking if it was normal and has degraded.

#67

I do remember a thread on COTH that said that pasture boarding, if done right, should be more expensive than stall boarding because picking and dragging the pastures daily is so much work.
I have two pastured horses at home and I am not doing it right. They have stalls with the doors open and free access to a small pasture. I have no sacrifice area. I do have additional drains and gravel outside of the stall doors. I feed hay year round, plus grain. I have the pasture mowed pretty regularly in the summer and I (gasp) never pick the pastures and have no spreader. It isn’t perfect, BUT I love that they can move around all of the time, that I get to see them all of the time, and that for me it is minimal work and therefore something I can give them in terms of their retirement.
i think that you have to decide if it’s worth moving over. If it isn’t, then decide if it is worth picking up after multiple horses yourself or hiring someone to do it.
this could be a huge issue if your horse is getting a skin condition or hoof problem, but it also could be anrelqtively minor one.

ETA: Lest anyone think that my horses are completely mistreated, let me say that I do clean the stalls as soon as I notice any time of mess. The pasture, though, I let go.

1 Like
#68

I originally thought it was the norm to clean them every day due to reading a thread on here about keeping horses at home and many of the posters said they did clean all year every day both the stall and the fields and by themselves. I did think it sounded like a lot of work but also kept in mind many of them had two or three horses.

It’s not thick snow all year here - I am by the coast and it’s mostly off and on frozen.

#69

This thread makes me feel better, because it’s hard to feel great about our winter sacrifice field after all the snow and then thawing recently. That said, part of our set up that I find helpful: we have an overhang roof that runs the length of the horse barn and indoor. It’s about 15-18 feet wide, and gives shade in the summer. The ground underneath stays dry, and we do pick it every day–we can get in there with the spreader and RTV. The nice part is that it always gives us at least one dry, firm area to feed hay in the sacrifice field, even when everything else gets soupy. But the rest of the sacrifice field can look like a battlefield by late winter/early spring!

3 Likes
#70

This isn’t as easy as it might seem, especially in the size of the pens you describe. 30’ x 80’ is kind of a tight area to manuever most tractors in (I’m assuming it’s a tractor big enough to safely move a round bale and not something smaller like a bobcat). If the ground is frozen and the tractor won’t leave massive ruts, the manure is likely too frozen to the ground for it to get picked up by the bucket or blade. That’s also a great way to ruin a tractor bucket over time and those are expensive to replace.

On the days that are warm enough for the manure to thaw, the tractor is going to leave ruts that are awful to fix. You will also end up scraping up some of the base, no matter how careful you are, and over time create low spots in the pen which will create more mud. And be expensive and time consuming to fix. Add to that the extra time you’ll have cleaning stalls (because you realistically can’t safely turn horses out in the pens that size while you’re cleaning them) and you just can’t win either way.

Really the ideal solution is to just not have winter. Like, ever. Once I figure out how to do that without being massively wealthy I’ll let y’all in on my secret.

11 Likes
#71

I originally thought it was the norm to clean them every day due to reading a thread on here about keeping horses at home and many of the posters said they did clean all year every day both the stall and the fields and by themselves. I did think it sounded like a lot of work but also kept in mind many of them had two or three horses.

I do know someone who kept horses like that; my old next door neighbor. She has a tiny paddock and no sacrifice area, so she picked her paddock every day as part of her chore routine. BUT she also kept her horses up in their stalls in bad weather or when the paddock was too wet, so it was less than ideal from a horse keeping standpoint, and also very expensive in terms on labor, bedding and hay. She has since moved to a larger property where manure and pasture management are easier.

So it does happen the way you thought, on small horse properties, but it’s an exaggeration to say it’s the norm. And I can’t imagine any commercial facility being able to do it and still make money.

A large commercial barn near me has two small paddocks near the barn to keep the lesson horses in during the day; and there’s a round bale in a feeder in each. The footing in them becomes solid manure in short order - it’s pretty nasty. Periodically they do take tractors with a blade and front end loader in there and scrap them back to bare dirt - once a month? Every other month? It is tricky, because if it’s wet or frozen, you can’t take equipment in the paddocks. Not ideal, and I wouldn’t want one of my horses in those pens all day BUT it is better than being confined to a stall for the same period of time and it works for them.

I get that you’re a new horse owner, and that you’re concerned about your horse. I also think it’s really wise to ask questions here and get some feedback before taking your concerns to your BO.

5 Likes
#72

Since you admit this is your first horse & that you are new to caretaking you need to give this barn a chance.

As far as standing in manure, you described the drylot as having “barely a place to walk without a poo” - which says to me it is not solidly footed with manure.

I have that same mess right in back of my stalls no matter how hard I try to keep it picked.
In Winter it just Does.Not.Happen. for all the reasons stated in other posts.

My horses have free access to their nice, cleanly-bedded stalls 24/7. But they choose to sleep just outside in the mess of manure & hay.
Proof in their having bellies damp from sleeping on the chosen “bed”. Sometimes one whole side has been in contact with the muck, evidence they slept flat out.
Horses are not humans, they choose comfort in ways we would find torturous.

4 Likes
#73

YES I have decide to give the place a chance. There are pluses! Also we are thinking of moving to North Virginia in a few years (we still need to check out the different areas and see if it’s a good fit or not). Nothing decided on that but I have checked out barns there and for 600 I can get more what I am hoping for with an indoor, pastures and more. Nothing is perfect I know that. thanks for your thoughts.

#74

NoVA is rather expensive. I’m surprised you found a place with an indoor for $600.

2 Likes
#75

Well… you may, in fact, be expecting too much for what you are paying. And you maybe be sending someone on a fool’s errand if you live in a place where snow and ice are A Thing. Or you maybe be in a market where there are too few people like you who would pay more and want more. No BO can afford to cater to the one high-end client.

There are huge variations in “what counts” as good horse keeping. Some of that depends on environmental conditions and some of that depends on money and well as local tradition.

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#76

When you read threads and people say “I pick my dry lots everyday year round” a major consideration is where they live. When I lived in the horse district in Aiken, SC everyone picked paddocks everyday because it was apparently a by-law (I was a teen at the time and this is what I was told), but the weather was also in everyones favour FOR picking paddocks everyday. Sand and nothing ever really froze. Same for when I lived in Florida, paddock picking was easy in the winter. I’m in Ontario and our paddocks won’t get done until probably May, maybe April if everything will dry, but it has to be dry.

Thick snow isn’t the problem, frozen is. We have practically no snow, but everything is frozen and ice. On the days it does thaw a bit, a tractor would wreck the fields by creating bit tire ruts, not good for the horses. Pushing a wheelbarrow around on the days it thaws, would be an uphill battle at best. Pushing a wheelbarrow across frozen icy ground, also not fun.

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#77

When I was in Aiken last winter I noticed people doing the same thing as you. I picked my horse’s paddock every day, and sometimes twice a day. The weather was very nice and so the job was fairly easy to do. Everyone else I was boarding with did the same thing with their paddocks. It didn’t take too long to do, just push a wheelbarrow in, pick up the poops and roll it back out. Doing a little bit every day simplified things considerably because there was no build up.

Back home in my area whether this happens or not depends on the weather and the individual BO/BM. My dressage trainer runs an impeccable facility where the sheds, fields, and paddocks all get picked regularly. There is NO build up. Therefore, when it freezes, they don’t have to worry about a manure problem simply because they put in the effort to clean it regularly. I don’t board there but I’m there often enough that I’ve seen this is just part of how they do things.

I know plenty of barns however, that say they pick the sheds every day, or a couple of times per week, even put that in their contract, but they don’t actually do it. At this point, barns that haven’t picked their fields aren’t going to be doing it. Either the ground is frozen and it’s impossible to pick anything, or when it warms up it is so muddy and gooey that it woudn’t be practical to do anything.

OP, go check out my thread on “winter water woes”. Sometimes it’s impossible to get BO/BM to even do the basics in the winter. I’d say what is going on at your boarding barn isn’t ideal, but if horses are in good weight AND getting plenty of fresh water AT ALL TIMES, then that may be all you can expect until spring.

1 Like
#78

I haven’t read through all the posts, as its late for me. But I was assistant manager to my barn for the first 2 years, and I made the staff clean outside turn outs even in the winter. My expectations for thoroughness wasn’t as big… but my point was even if they took out 5 poop piles a day per paddock (one horse per paddock) that was a whole lot less in the spring to deal with.
Then there was a change in management, and the new manager said no to cleaning outside paddocks in the winter, well come spring melt, you could smell the barn from a mile down the road, and the amount of foot issues we suddenly had were crazy. It was disgusting. I have always cleaned my own paddock, and continued in the winter. Some boarders suddenly wanted my paddock as it was the cleanest, come spring - and I said no way was I being moved.
Now we come to this winter, and I’ve taken over managing the barn, and I hire staff to clean the paddocks even in the winter. And when I started to have staffing issues (finding someone to work for $15/hr is hard in my town) I gave a discount to boarder for them to clean their own paddocks. And again in the winter the expectation is minimum 4 days per week those paddocks get cleaned.

I do not think you are expecting too much, but that said - what was your understanding when you started to board there… what is in your contract? I personally would never board at a facility that didn’t have paddock cleaning multiple times through out the week. But I also wouldn’t board at a facility that they threw hay on top of poop. Not sure if you offered to stuff your own haynets, why they wouldn’t let you hang them. So although you and I have the same belief… you may need to look for a barn that has your same belief.

#79

Maybe pasture board with everything you are looking for for $600. It’s rare to find a place with stall board for $600 that has all of that.

Think about this… if the poop was all picked up daily, it’s still going to rain and snow, and then you are left with mud. Which gets slick and dangerous at its worst and choppy/uneven, just like poop, at its best. You are going to have shitty footing either way, so I don’t have a problem with pastures not being picked often in the winter. I would rather have some traction with choppy poop/mud mix than slick footing of just mud.

I think your one post you read about people picking their fields every day is the exception, not the rule. I have worked at boarding barns for several years and if the job isn’t hard enough in the cold, snow, etc, it’s made harder with limited daylight. You need to identify your priorities. Mine are safe pastures, access to water, enough hay that is good quality, compassionate and detail oriented employees. There are things I compromise on- sure, like in an ideal world I would prefer more shavings in the stall, or for my horse to be field boarded closer to the barn so I don’t have to walk 1/3 mile to get him. However, none of these are safety issues, and my board cost is likely cheaper than reasonable for the amenities and care my horses get, so it’s not a big deal.

As everyone else said, if your priority is drier/cleaner footing in turnout, move. If everything else is done well and your horse is taken care of, then let it go. Continuing to complain about it (whether sarcastically, as you continue to do here, or not) is only going to continue to make you unhappy without solving the problem.

The thread has “degraded” from your original post because you continue identify a perceived issue, give sarcastic responses about how everyone must be okay with their horses living in shit, and not accepting that your perception of how everyone cares for their horses is just not the norm.

10 Likes
#80

There’s no way that $600 per month in board includes paying someone to pick manure out of muddy outdoor paddocks. Most boarding barns do not pick paddocks because it is a very labor intensive thing to do. And, frankly, in winter, it might just not even be reasonably possible to accomplish. If I wanted to pick my paddocks right now, I’d have to haul a wheelbarrow out into the muddy paddocks, fill it up, and then wheel the heavy, full barrow all the way back to the muck heap (also a very muddy area), or somehow get the manure into the spreader. I can’t take the tractor out into the fields because it would dig things up terribly. Have you ever tried picking wet manure up out of mud or pushing a full wheelbarrow though the mud? It’s a Herculean task.

Not having seen the paddocks, I can’t really comment on how bad the situation is. It’s okay for a paddock to have manure in it. Make sure your horse is on a correct deworming program and check a fecal egg count if you are concerned. If the paddock itself has become a heap of muddy muck (which can happen anywhere there are multiple horses, horses’ hooves are very efficient at churning up mud), the only solutions are to put the horses out in a different area or more realistically to invest in some type of a hay basket or hay feeder which will keep the hay off the ground.

1 Like

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