Boarding stables and the ADA

Canaqua · August 27, 2020, 11:06pm

I think things get grandfathered in? There is a barn with a therapeutic riding program up the street, I’ve hung around there enough to use the only bathroom. There is a step up to it and it is not compliant as far as being big enough to turn a wheelchair around in/no grab bars, etc… The program is certified and licensed. It gets a fair amount of local press, so it’s not operating under the radar.

The last barn I was at had a disabled boarder, she used a wheelchair for longer distances and elbow crutches for short distances. It was an old barn and the bathroom was not compliant. The rest of the facility was fine…flat, wide doors and aisles, ramps (you find those around horses anyway, since they are big and don’t climb stairs ;)).

I honestly don’t know what happens if an older barn has a disabled boarder arrive. It doesn’t seem, from my experienca anyway, that you have to do massive rennovations just for that, but if you are doing new build, you have to be compliant.

EAH · August 27, 2020, 11:06pm

All good points. I am not disabled and do own a small boarding stable. I am asking because where I live there have been several suits about ADA, however, none at boarding stables. I do not think the local laws make any difference since when a lawsuit occurs the ADA federal requirements apply and any state law if more severe. I also do not think grandfathering applies.

I feel the ADA law is a disaster in the waiting and needs to be tightened. As you can see from the responses many think they are exempt and are probably not. Shocking as that may seem.

I feel that based on how it is applied in my review that you are exempt only if you keep only your own horses.

Tiffani_B · August 27, 2020, 11:06pm

I think a barn would be fine if they chose not to provide services to disabled people for reasons of safety. Even if the facility was ADA compliant, that would still not necessarily make for a safe environment for everyone, horses and humans.

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/the-right-to-refuse-service-can-a-business-refuse-service-to-someone-because-of-appearance

In reading that, it sounds like as long as you had a clear safety code, that all boarders and lesson students had to meet a minimum set of abilities due to safety concerns and EVERYONE was treated the same way (i.e. not making an exception for the wealthy woman in the wheelchair) you would be ok.

Where_sMyWhite · August 27, 2020, 11:06pm

[QUOTE=pezk;8718365]
Maybe a wheelchair might be able to access that doorway but it would be a tight fit.[/QUOTE]

FWIW, an ADA compliant bathroom isn’t just the width of the door (30" I believe), but can I get my chair in and close to the toilet as well as placement of grab bars. I have been in bathroom (stalls usually) where I have to back in because there isn’t sufficient space to turn my power chair around but the rest works).

If you’re going ADA, you need parking and ramps to get in and out of the building (chairs don’t do stairs very well). And the slope of the ramp is clearly stated in the ADA specs.

My old barn was new about 10 years ago (when it was built) and there was some “thing” (don’t remember now what it was) that allowed the owners (who lived on the property) to avoid ADA compliance. Not sure what that was.

shakeytails · August 27, 2020, 11:07pm

I think it’s ridiculous to expect every ag facility to become ADA compliant. A barn is not a supermarket with flat floors and a paved parking lot. Horses are unpredictable and move faster than non-disabled people can get out of the way, nevermind someone on crutches or in a wheelchair.

In my (private) barn, the aisle is shavings. You must step up 4-6 inches to get into the tack room/bathroom or on to the wash rack. If the big barn doors are closed a disabled person would be unlikely to be able to open them and there is no man door or a place to put one. If I did provide boarding(my barn is big enough) and someone told me I had to comply with ADA with ramps and a larger bathroom, I would simply kick everybody out and that would be the end of that. I understand that someone with a disability would like access to everything, but to expect every single small business to be accessible is unreasonable. Heck, where I work (and I’m a nurse) is not entirely wheelchair friendly and we don’t accept WC bound patients as simply not suitable for our facility and needing a higher level of care.

Lady_Eboshi · August 27, 2020, 11:08pm

Therapeutic riding facilities now abound; in fact, this is such a growth market in our area they are literally popping up like mushrooms. That’s where I would politely direct any potential client with mobility or perception challenges that require special needs. Those places not only specialize in those particular accommodations, they are ACCREDITED AND INSURED for such as well.

Common sense dictates the person would happily accept the referral and take their business to such a place, immediately available and ready to serve them, rather than trying to SUE their way into a barn that totally isn’t set up to accommodate their needs, and probably can’t or won’t be. I suppose some certified knothead with a SJW chip on their shoulder could try it, but they’d better have some deep pockets for lawyers. There are no laws I’m aware of that “force” us to take ANY customer we don’t want to deal with.

Stables are set up for boarding HORSES, not people. Safe fencing, clean water, appropriate feeding, suitable barns are the criteria. To my knowledge, we fall under “agricultural” rather than “commercial” rules most places. It might be a grayer area if a stable was open to walk-in visits by the general public and the primary business was lessons, but even then you are allowed to “say no” to serving anyone you feel would not be safe or appropriate around horses for any reason. Disruptive children, for instance.

A good analogy is a sailing school like many that operate from beaches here; they solicit the general public for lesson students and have certain criteria for acceptance; for example, a swimming test. While they might decide on a per-case basis to accommodate a minor impairment, by no means is any regulatory agency expecting them to get the wheelchair-bound across an expanse of sand and onto small, tippy boats that can easily dump them in the water. That could never be made a safe or appropriate situation. The disabled certainly can enjoy boating–just on very different kinds of boats, that they can safely access from docks and ramps built for wheelchairs.

To my knowledge, no agency can force a barn to provide bathroom facilities AT ALL, let alone ADA compliant, and I’ve never seen a stable with a paved parking lot either.

So the bottom line is, COULD they sue you? Yeah, maybe. WOULD they? Probably not.

Where_sMyWhite · August 27, 2020, 11:08pm

While I do agree that a private boarding barn should not have to be ADA compliant for so many reasons, I sure hope none of you end up with a disability… changes your view of the world.

I might not want to ride (or be able to) but I so miss the sweet smell of hay, the quiet sound of horses munching, and the feel of a horse’s breath on my face as I softly blow into their nose…

pezk · August 27, 2020, 11:08pm

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8719023]
Therapeutic riding facilities now abound; in fact, this is such a growth market in our area they are literally popping up like mushrooms. That’s where I would politely direct any potential client with mobility or perception challenges that require special needs. Those places not only specialize in those particular accommodations, they are ACCREDITED AND INSURED for such as well.

Common sense dictates the person would happily accept the referral and take their business to such a place, immediately available and ready to serve them, rather than trying to SUE their way into a barn that totally isn’t set up to accommodate their needs, and probably can’t or won’t be. I suppose some certified knothead with a SJW chip on their shoulder could try it, but they’d better have some deep pockets for lawyers. There are no laws I’m aware of that “force” us to take ANY customer we don’t want to deal with.

Stables are set up for boarding HORSES, not people. Safe fencing, clean water, appropriate feeding, suitable barns are the criteria. To my knowledge, we fall under “agricultural” rather than “commercial” rules most places. It might be a grayer area if a stable was open to walk-in visits by the general public and the primary business was lessons, but even then you are allowed to “say no” to serving anyone you feel would not be safe or appropriate around horses for any reason. Disruptive children, for instance.

A good analogy is a sailing school like many that operate from beaches here; they solicit the general public for lesson students and have certain criteria for acceptance; for example, a swimming test. While they might decide on a per-case basis to accommodate a minor impairment, by no means is any regulatory agency expecting them to get the wheelchair-bound across an expanse of sand and onto small, tippy boats that can easily dump them in the water. That could never be made a safe or appropriate situation. The disabled certainly can enjoy boating–just on very different kinds of boats, that they can safely access from docks and ramps built for wheelchairs.

To my knowledge, no agency can force a barn to provide bathroom facilities AT ALL, let alone ADA compliant, and I’ve never seen a stable with a paved parking lot either.

So the bottom line is, COULD they sue you? Yeah, maybe. WOULD they? Probably not.[/QUOTE]

But are you going to throw out a boarder than fell off their horse and broke their leg and are on crutches for a few weeks? Is there a line?

shakeytails · August 27, 2020, 11:09pm

[QUOTE=pezk;8719293]
But are you going to throw out a boarder than fell off their horse and broke their leg and are on crutches for a few weeks? Is there a line?[/QUOTE]

Obviously there’s a line. One would hope that boarder would have some sense and wouldn’t attempt to sue for ADA compliance. I’d be willing to bet that most facilities would just stop offering boarding if faced with a lawsuit and/or $$$$ renovations.

Chimera · August 27, 2020, 11:09pm

I don’t really know much about the ADA requirements in the US so I can’t comment on that. However, as someone who uses a wheelchair and recently went boarding barn shopping I will comment on the “refer to a therapeutic riding center” thing. In my area at least, they are exactly that…therapeutic. I’m not really looking for that. I want a barn with exceptional horse care practices, a facility that I can make work with help where needed from SO and with boarders who are for the most part welcoming people. I did get referred to those places, as well as told that I was a huge liability and all sorts of other things…at one point my SO was told that she couldn’t leave me there alone, like I’m a child that needs to be supervised. Look I get that when people see wheelchairs and people with disabilities that they often don’t know how to react. A good first step is to just talk to me. If you have any questions, especially when I’m looking at your barn as a potential home for my most precious possessions, please just ask. I promise I’m not going to make your life miserable, I want this to work out too. What you think I might need in order to ride and handle my horses and what I actually do are two totally different things.

What I actually need is the following:

An open mind and a willingness to realize that the way I do things is a little unconventional. For example, I can’t really put my big horse in cross ties because I can’t reach them most of the time. But he ground ties great anywhere I leave him. This may mean that I need to groom him in the aisle or outside of a regular grooming stall if it’s super narrow, but I’ll always move out of the way and won’t come at turn-in time. In paddocks with other horses, I often need to let him out before I can halter him because the other horses are too pushy. But don’t worry, he won’t run away, he knows there is food if he waits. I tend to use the facility around me to try to accomplish things. For example, at my old barn I could get up onto the kick boards by a series of transfers and then get on my horse that way…meaning he had to stand alone in the arena while I did this. I won’t do this with other horses in the arena.
I need a place to put my wheelchair when I ride, and that place needs to be somewhere where I can get to it when I’m done. In most arenas this is the corner behind the mounting block. But as I get it back there by a clip and a lead rope and pulling it, don’t worry I won’t do it when other horses are in there unless the owner has told me that it’s ok. Also if it’s busy, my SO will likely just lift me on and thus she can take it somewhere else. But I’m a quad, and it will take me an hour to pull myself to my chair if you make me put it outside.

And that’s really it. It’s a barn…there has never not been a place where I can park so that I can get my chair out of my car. I understand that parking lots are not paved and as such the tires on my barn chair are “mountain bike” tires. I’m not going to pick a barn where the layout makes getting around it impossible for me. Yes horses spook at wheelchairs the first time. But most often once they realize that they contain people with carrots…it’s fine. Much like the spook at farm vehicles until they realize the hay comes out the back. I get that I can’t get out of the way as fast if a horse tries to trample me, but that’s my fault not theirs.

Accessibility is great, and while it would be fantastic if places were truly accessible, it is what it is and I don’t know a single disabled person who would ever even think that someone should renovate their barn so that they could board there…

fordtraktor · August 27, 2020, 11:09pm

We had a boarder in a wheelchair at my family’s farm. It was a great experience for us and we believe for the boarder as well. My dad built a special mounting block that was back-level with his horse so he could use it to mount with assistance (he was young), and our barn was very accessible already.

I would have worried a lot more but he had a very appropriate, well behaved horse. We made sure to keep it in a field with another saintly horse that he could be around perfectly safely, and in the field closest to the barn with good footing, and did not have any issues.

I am sure we were not “ADA compliant” per se if we’d had an inspection but we’d have been happy to add anything needed like rails in the bathroom, etc. and we made that clear, so I didn’t anticipate any complaints.

If I was building a boarding barn for that purpose, I would ensure it was ADA compliant. I just think it is the smart thing to do. it costs a lot more to go back and change it later. My current barn is likely not compliant, I think the Tack Room doors are too narrow. Everything else would be OK as I don’t have a bathroom there right now, it’s not even offered.

Where_sMyWhite · August 27, 2020, 11:09pm

Been thinking about this thread a bit.

I am pretty much wheel chair dependent. I don’t expect most boarding barns to be ADA compliant (I don’t know what makes any facility or business have to comply or not).

If I am thinking of riding, I won’t be coming to your barn, I’ll be looking for a therapeutic riding facility. If I’m just looking for a “barn” fix or to visit, I still probably won’t come to your barn. Getting out/in a car and dealing with a wheelchair is a PITA and there are things I just don’t bother doing because of that.

Seems there are two types of people with disabilities that might be visiting the “average” boarding barn… those who board their horse there and have some sort of temporary disability (surgery, broken limb, etc) and those that might have some type of permanent disability (such as mine).

The permanent disability people are far less likely to visit just because it is difficult for them to visit. This might include the grandmother who was horse crazy growing up and now has a horse crazy granddaughter and grandma just wants to watch an occasional lesson.

Most (I realize not all) of your barns are already probably fairly accessible for either the temporary or permanent disability (I’m not saying ADA but accessible). Your barn aisles are probably fairly hard… either hard pack dirt or pavers or cement. Getting into your barn from the outside is probably not too hard… farm equipment doesn’t like severe drop offs, neither do horses. Parking areas are also usually fairly hard packed dirt as are getting to/from arenas.

So, you warn me that your bathroom isn’t ADA so I can make suitable plans to work around that. I can’t go into the arena because the dirt is too soft but that’s really ok. I just want to watch. I don’t want to get into the wash stall but maybe watching someone (from well out of the way) tack up would be nice.

Please tell me I am wrong but I get the feeling from reading many of these posts, that people with disabilities aren’t wanted, at all due to the number of reasons that we shouldn’t visit.

Maybe instead, for the very few visitors with disabilities that you real do have, either temporary or permanent, be thinking about how they can visit and work with them to make their visit safe for them and for the boarders and their horses.

Every single day I run into challenges because I am in a wheelchair. Today (and many days), I use the fancy new chip reader at a store to check out. The chip readers are always on the bottom. By the time I’ve put my card in, I can’t tip the display far enough forward for me to read it. You all probably never even realize that is a problem and that’s ok.

If I were to want to come and visit, work with me to make it safe and pleasant for all…

shakeytails · August 27, 2020, 11:10pm

WMW- that is exactly the attitude I’d hope you’d have. I believe most would be happy to try to accommodate. I understand that it sucks to be stuck in a WC, and I’ll help as much as possible, but permanent alterations to the facilities are likely cost-prohibitive. It’s when the government or some sue-happy person like another poster mentioned gets involved that people get defensive.

eastendjumper · August 27, 2020, 11:10pm

The timing of this thread is a little spooky; I’m currently going through the site plan for our new facility and ensuring we comply with all possible codes. In my area, Ada County, ID. The lot is rural zoned. Here, it goes like this:

All boarding barns are commercial and public. Period. Anytime anyone besides the owner uses the property, it is public and commercial
I need to comply with commercial code. All lighting, landscaping, storage and delivery bays, signs, building sizes, uses, and materials, septic, and parking must meet those codes, including ADA. (We are a lesson barn primarily, I have s lot of elderly grandparents come to watch lessons, it was easy and necessary to make sure we complied regardless of the requirement to. But, as has been pointed out, barns are fairly straightforward in allowing this compliance)
I dodged a bullet when the county randomly decided I did not need to pave the private road I will be using. Not only did this save me a lot of $, but if the road had been paved they would have required ALL general and trailer parking areas paved as well.
Complying sucks, folks. But it is just good business to accommodate as many as we can, as safely and comfortably as we can.

Where_sMyWhite · August 27, 2020, 11:10pm

[QUOTE=shakeytails;8719527]
WMW- that is exactly the attitude I’d hope you’d have. I believe most would be happy to try to accommodate. I understand that it sucks to be stuck in a WC, and I’ll help as much as possible, but permanent alterations to the facilities are likely cost-prohibitive. It’s when the government or some sue-happy person like another poster mentioned gets involved that people get defensive.[/QUOTE]

You are welcome. I try to be one of the people with a disability without a chip on my shoulder but I will confess sometimes it is hard.

Can’t help situations like eastendjumper if she is required to be ADA compliant as part of zoning and local government. ADA is primarily “standards” to be followed to ensure that something is accessible (although I’d love to meet the people who wrote the bathroom standards… they were never in a WC it sure feels like :eek: )

But, outside a situation like this, an appearance that people with disabilities are welcome will go along way. Yeah, you’ll get people who expect more than you can provide but if safety for all (boarders, horses, visitors, workers) is stressed that can hopefully adjust some mind sets.

Also remember that unless you’re really running a huge public lesson facility and/or rental string that the number of differently abled will be fairly small for most of you. (And yes, eastendjumper, I can feel your pain with respect to $$, at least since you are still in the planning stages, much easier to integrate in accessibility.)

For most barns, the big “accessibility” is the bathroom. The rest kinda falls into place

eastendjumper - glad you didn’t have to pave the private road and the parking lot and trailer parking :eek:

EAH · August 27, 2020, 11:10pm

[QUOTE=eastendjumper;8719606]
The timing of this thread is a little spooky; I’m currently going through the site plan for our new facility and ensuring we comply with all possible codes. In my area, Ada County, ID. The lot is rural zoned. Here, it goes like this:

All boarding barns are commercial and public. Period. Anytime anyone besides the owner uses the property, it is public and commercial
I need to comply with commercial code. All lighting, landscaping, storage and delivery bays, signs, building sizes, uses, and materials, septic, and parking must meet those codes, including ADA. (We are a lesson barn primarily, I have s lot of elderly grandparents come to watch lessons, it was easy and necessary to make sure we complied regardless of the requirement to. But, as has been pointed out, barns are fairly straightforward in allowing this compliance)
I dodged a bullet when the county randomly decided I did not need to pave the private road I will be using. Not only did this save me a lot of $, but if the road had been paved they would have required ALL general and trailer parking areas paved as well.
Complying sucks, folks. But it is just good business to accommodate as many as we can, as safely and comfortably as we can.[/QUOTE]

This is what I thought and thus boarding costs will go up to pay for all of these things. Too bad.

Also, I would be concerned about another horse reaction to a wheelchair in the aisle. I had a mare that would spook when a bike was nearby. I can not imagine what a wheelchair would have done to this 16.3 hand lady.

EAH · August 27, 2020, 11:10pm

Around here there are people that make a good living from ADA lawsuits. They are professional ADA litigators.

Where_sMyWhite · August 27, 2020, 11:10pm

[QUOTE=EAH;8719776]
Also, I would be concerned about another horse reaction to a wheelchair in the aisle. I had a mare that would spook when a bike was nearby. I can not imagine what a wheelchair would have done to this 16.3 hand lady.[/QUOTE]

So, again, work with me. Rather than thinking of the horse with the issue, think of how I could visit and keep us (horse, me, you, etc) all safe? Tack the horse up some place else, have me wait some place else while this mare is being tacked up, maybe this mare won’t even have to leave her stall while I’m there for one of my rare visits (and for me, I won’t be staying all day as you probably don’t have bathroom I can use.)

How many differently abled visitors are you expecting to get in the first place? In the off chance granny wants to come watch the apple of her eye take a riding lesson, work with her so she can do that rather than focusing on the, perhaps, one horse that may have an issue with a wheelchair.

Frankly this type of attitude is more than frustrating. I face roadblocks every time I leave my house because I am differently abled (and many the abled never even notice). Reading of more is just plain frustrating when all it would take is a matter of thought adjustment.

Where_sMyWhite · August 27, 2020, 11:10pm

[QUOTE=EAH;8719779]
Around here there are people that make a good living from ADA lawsuits. They are professional ADA litigators.[/QUOTE]

And for some of those lawsuits, maybe they could have been prevented with some willingness to work with the differently abled and been less adversarial?

And yes, some people do have chips on their shoulders and will resent everything that isn’t up to their expectations, but not all of us are like this, truly.

Lady_Eboshi · August 27, 2020, 11:11pm

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8719481]
Been thinking about this thread a bit.