Boarding stables and the ADA

[Where_sMyWhite]

@Lady Eboshi;8719910

But a client catching, grooming, and handling their horse in the open with severe mobility or visual impairments is a very different kettle of fish, which I consider completely unsafe in our setting and the reason why I would refer a prospect whose condition is permanent to a purpose-built facility, appropriately insured.

And this I would completely agree and expect. If your facility isn’t suitable, it isn’t suitable. Horses and differently abled really aren’t compatible. But, how kind of you to help your client be able to share a bit of face-to-face time with their horse. For me, that would have meant the world…

[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;8719910]Totally agree with a poster above that you never know what it’s like until you have a hitch-in-the-gitalong of your own. But lurching around the yard hip bursitis has made me MORE aware of safety factors than EVER. Horses are LESS forgiving if you can’t get out of their way, and that is an unfortunate truth.

Common sense dictates that one seek out the facility most in line with one’s needs.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. I am not expecting everyone to plop their behind down in a WC for a day to share in the experience. Take my word for it, it’s not my personal idea of fun, but it is what it is.

And remember that my “need” may not be that I want to board my horse there and take it out to hand graze every day. Maybe my “need” is just to watch the apple of my eye take the occasional lesson

[shakeytails]

[QUOTE=EAH;8719776]
This is what I thought and thus boarding costs will go up to pay for all of these things. Too bad.

Also, I would be concerned about another horse reaction to a wheelchair in the aisle. I had a mare that would spook when a bike was nearby. I can not imagine what a wheelchair would have done to this 16.3 hand lady.[/QUOTE]

Funny thing about this- when I was still a teenager I had a Morgan I trained myself, a 3 or 4 year old, bred to be hot, little gelding that could be goofy at times. We were in the grooming stall at State Fair getting ready for a class when a friend brought around a group of special needs kids- most with some sort of mobility device. My friend allowed them in in spite of me giving her that “are you crazy?” look. That horse stood stock still and acted like an old broke cow pony around those kids. He knew.

Granted, still I would not want non-horse people with a WC/walker/crutches not closely supervised. But it is amazing how many horses know when it’s important that they keep calm and act like they have some sense- even if it goes against their typical personality.

[Coreene]

WHW, I would happily take you around my stable as often as you’d like. We have two ADA compliant restrooms with ramps, ramps into the event facility, a ramp into the office, and our therapeutic riding center is very kind about sharing their mounting ramp (they may require a waiver, but it is not an issue).

I spent about five months in a wheelchair in 2011/12. No better times during the healing then when I could visit my dear horse.

[Chimera]

[QUOTE=shakeytails;8720153]
Funny thing about this- when I was still a teenager I had a Morgan I trained myself, a 3 or 4 year old, bred to be hot, little gelding that could be goofy at times. We were in the grooming stall at State Fair getting ready for a class when a friend brought around a group of special needs kids- most with some sort of mobility device. My friend allowed them in in spite of me giving her that “are you crazy?” look. That horse stood stock still and acted like an old broke cow pony around those kids. He knew.

Granted, still I would not want non-horse people with a WC/walker/crutches not closely supervised. But it is amazing how many horses know when it’s important that they keep calm and act like they have some sense- even if it goes against their typical personality.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I agree with this completely. My mare is a hot as hell WB who has been known to buck me off and run home because she saw a cyclist in the distance. When I first got injured I thought there was no way she would ever come near me again. At the time I had to use a power chair and so it was big and made a buzzing sound and looked like something she would be terrified of. I opted to just go up to her stall door and she wandered over, plopped her head in my lap, and other than a slight moment of hesitation regarding leading the first time, has never once done anything that put me at risk. I actually find that most horses are too in my pocket after the initial “there’s a rolling person coming”. I really think people need to give those with disabilities a little more credit that we are not going to sneak up on your horse and scare it to death. For example my conversation to a boarder I had not met yet tonight:
Me:“Hi, is your horse ok if I come in?”
Her: “Yes just let me unclip him”
Me:" Can he have a treat?"
Her: “sure”
Me to horse: “Hi friend, would you like a treat” rolls closer “see not so scary”
Horse goes back to sleep in cross ties.

[EAH]

I would do a lot to help someone disabled. I started this thread a year ago to bring up the fact that many who own stables think they do not have to follow the ADA law. That does not seem to be the case. Where I live the professional litigators are leaving a bad taste about the ADA. The legislature may make it a law that the owner has an opportunity to make changes before paying the blackmail. That has not been the case. The lawyer bringing the cases is disabled and may not even use the business but if drives by and sees barriers will sue. He is making a lot of money and making people mad.

[clanter]

The lawyer bringing the cases is disabled

buy him a horse make sure he wears a helmet …then if the there is a god, horse will kill the sob

[Where_sMyWhite]

That is most unfortunate. I suspect some of the requirements for ADA compliance will be state/local requirements (not the specs which are covered by ADA but in defining if ADA must be complied with). Please also remember that many of us would not choose to litigate and would look with distaste upon those that due and please don’t paint us all with the same brush.

There are “ambulance chasers” in all areas of life unfortunately.

I was watching TVG today and noticed an interview with a trainer (forget his name) at Santa Anita who appeared to be in a WC. It was nice to see that a trainer felt, along with the rest of the backstretch workers, that he could be safe enough or willing to assume the risk around track TBs.

[HorsesinHaiti]

I hope barn owners, other boarders, and differently- abled horse people can have friendly, ‘what solution works for all of us’ conversations to find ways to make wheelchairs etc workable in barns. Unfortunately, I can’t see how you can avoid having a representative present as well for another 700 lb elephant in the barn.

The barn insurance agent, as well. For instance, Everyone onsite may be fine with allowing ground tying. But even the most bombproof horse spooks. Even if that horse does exactly what any ‘got loose on its own’ horse does, and someone gets hurt, the insurance company of the hurt person will likely try to go after the BO because ‘they gave permission for the horse to be insufficiently restrained’. We’ve all seen the threads on COTH about insurance.

So barn owners and others, what would you need to do with your insurance agent to accommodate such a boarder? Would you need a site visit, even one with the boarder present to explain the accommodations they want approved?

[Where_sMyWhite]

[QUOTE=HorsesinHaiti;8720999]
So barn owners and others, what would you need to do with your insurance agent to accommodate such a boarder? Would you need a site visit, even one with the boarder present to explain the accommodations they want approved?[/QUOTE]

A visit should be different than actually boarding one’s horse at a barn. A barn that may be perfectly suitable for the occasional differently abled visitor may easily not be suitable for a boarder (excluding those with temporary disabilities).

In this case, not sure what you mean by “approved”?

I can’t speak for individual zoning requirements with respect to being ADA compliant but from a strictly personal perspective… I tell you I am in a WC. We (BO and/or BM and myself) discuss what I might need to access the part(s) of the facility I am interested - say watching DGD take a lesson. We discuss primarily “footing”… my personal guideline is if you can ride a road bicycle on it, a WC will work. Stairs? Usually not an issue. Bathroom, no grab bars and small - ok, I don’t use it.

Done.

I would personally not be expecting any changes to be made on my account. I would be expecting to know what the facility is like and see if I think it will work. That may also mean that I do show up and find out it won’t work (done that before with dog activities… thought they would work but didn’t).

[Where_sMyWhite]

And a PS in thinking more about EAH’s post.

Can’t help the ambulance chaser who is seeking out non-compliant businesses and suing them. Maybe local law needs to change with respect to what businesses should be able to be grandfathered without having to retro-actively make a facility ADA compliant. Or, if that is what zoning requires, do it so there is no reason to sue.

But, with respect to a general concern… geeze… how many of you really think you are going to get many regular visitors who are differently abled? For most of you, you sound like you are private barns and not even huge ones at that. You will see far fewer of the differently abled than you will of the more than annoying neighborhood kids or people driving down the country dirt road that assume they can waltz right into the barn and feed the horses treats.

This feels in part like making Mount Everest out of a molehill for most of you. The amount of roadblocks and concerns I can understand but it’s also very frustrating and almost hurtful (which I will very rarely admit to). Life every single day is a challenge. Having to read all these reasons why differently abled shouldn’t visit is hard. Maybe I should a) be less sensitive and b) put this whole thread on ignore. Probably done on this thread being an advocate for the differently abled.

Oh, insurance. Might be an idea to check but I would think liability would cover it (what would you do if I just showed up, ask me to leave?). And don’t worry about it on my account, I won’t be coming to visit your barn

[HorsesinHaiti]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8721159]
A visit should be different than actually boarding one’s horse at a barn. A barn that may be perfectly suitable for the occasional differently abled visitor may easily not be suitable for a boarder (excluding those with temporary disabilities).

In this case, not sure what you mean by “approved”?

I can’t speak for individual zoning requirements with respect to being ADA compliant but from a strictly personal perspective… I tell you I am in a WC. We (BO and/or BM and myself) discuss what I might need to access the part(s) of the facility I am interested - say watching DGD take a lesson. We discuss primarily “footing”… my personal guideline is if you can ride a road bicycle on it, a WC will work. Stairs? Usually not an issue. Bathroom, no grab bars and small - ok, I don’t use it.

Done.

I would personally not be expecting any changes to be made on my account. I would be expecting to know what the facility is like and see if I think it will work. That may also mean that I do show up and find out it won’t work (done that before with dog activities… thought they would work but didn’t).[/QUOTE]

I agree, regular insurance probably covers ALL mobility challenged visitors who just want to watch other riders and occasionally pet a horse that someone else is holding. I, and I think most of us, would be happy to find a wheelchair user some way to do that. Might suggest someplace other than the barn isle if the isle is narrow, but not out of any desire to make life difficult.

My question was specifically about mobility challenged boarders who want to take out, handle, and ride their horses independently. If I were the theoretical BO, of course I’d be happy to work with a WC using rider to find ways that they could handle and mount their horse in a way that’s safe and reasonably workable for everyone.

But I would have to be aware that my insurance company agreed to insure me for my current rate only under assumption that I am enforcing ‘usual and customary safety procedures’, even if they normally never check if I am or not. It isn’t fair that someone has to use a chair. It also wouldn’t be fair if the insurance can cancel coverage, potentially shutting down the boarding business, if they hear secondhand that I allowed ‘alternate procedures’ which seem to the agent to be higher risk than the usual. Insurance companies survive by being risk-averse bean counters, and they know and get nervous about horse handlers who seemingly aren’t up to the usual physical norm for achieving the normally expected amount of physical control over a spooking horse. Because that’s the angle that a personal injury lawyer will pounce on, unjustly or not, if anyone else brings a claim. And because the ‘usual level of physical skill’ is what they used in their actuarial tables when setting the barns insurance premium, like it or not.

So as BO, best practice in risk reduction for me would be to call my insurance agent, explain our mutually agreed on alternate procedures, and try to get a written and signed statement from my insurance that they agree your APs are reasonable and covered under my policy. If the agent is leery, it may be that I can best defend your horse handling by inviting the agent to come out, meet you, and see you demo that yes, your procedures do work and don’t constitute a significant change of risk.

SO, actual BOs with a real life clue about boarding situations (my experience is with other than insurance agents), would you see need for a conversation like that with your insurance agent before taking in your first WC using boarder/handler/rider? Would your agent/ company care? Just want to be informed in advance? Pitch a fit?

Again, I and others would want to accommodate para horse people, and doing that respectfully without endangering the business does require answering some issues like these as part of saying ‘yes’.

[Where_sMyWhite]

[QUOTE=HorsesinHaiti;8721911]
My question was specifically about mobility challenged boarders who want to take out, handle, and ride their horses independently. If I were the theoretical BO, of course I’d be happy to work with a WC using rider to find ways that they could handle and mount their horse in a way that’s safe and reasonably workable for everyone.[/QUOTE]

And this yes, I can certainly understand the hesitancy. If I was temp in WC, I’d try to work with the BO to see if we can work something out that makes sense for the duration.

If the WC appeared to be permanent, I most likely would be looking for a different place to board if I was expecting to take an active role in the care of my horse. I surely wouldn’t expect a BO to turn their place upside down to meet my needs if their intent wasn’t to be running a facility specifically for differently abled riders.

And frankly. if I’m in a WC, being able to safely mount and ride my horse the typical boarding barn probably can’t safely meet my needs and I, at least, would not be offended if you open up a discussion on the wisdom of moving to a facility more suited to the differently abled.

[TheresanAppfurthat]

Become a private lesson barn with auditions to get in, and hold no public events at your place.

About twenty years ago I had such a critter and because the two local special riding programs were full up and prospective clients (or parents of same) were getting a little desperate, I could count on at least weekly a strong demand from a walk-in visitor that I immediately add staff, wheelchair access, handicapped restrooms, etc. If I could have, financially, I would have. Talked to a friend who did ag law and had been active in the state’s equestrian law revamping. Said as long as I was private and did not advertise public boarding only lessons with a buy-in or audition-in, and held no public or publicly advertised events in my barn, I was teflon. I do understand the desperation of some to get into a program as hippotherapy (what it used ta be called in da olden’ days) is so amazingly effective for improving just about any kind of mental, emotional or physical challenge. But if you’re the barn owner and the budget just is not there, you have to change how you hold yourself out to the public and that means don’t hold yourself out to the public.

[EAH]

Yes. I think if you advertise or accept general boarders that the ADA law puts you at risk. The rules are very strict. For example, if a slope is too steep then there must be a flat area a certain width every so feet for a wheelchair. The doors have to be opened with a certain amount of force. The parking should be a hard surface that a wheelchair can negotiate. Etc. Failure to do these things could mean that the whole operation could be shut down. Most barns are not designed with the ADA in mind and retrofitting can be just TOO expensive to make sense. Thus, your whole business goes up in smoke.

[clanter]

Thus, your whole business goes up in smoke

and then the arson investigation begins

but realistically, as you have pointed out there restrictions and demands by the government just make me say No, I quite you can have it.

There may at one time been a problem with what was acceptable or not but today nothing is acceptable unless it provides for every possibility which is completely unacceptable…so I would close my bakery, close my stable and just say sorry to any one or any government agency who wanted to control to the infantine degree my business’s operation

The reluctance to invest in projects that may have a perceived public access to me just is not worth the potential loss even if there is insurance to cover the legation

My anger is not at the one agency or person but the acceptance that has become the standard that everything is to accessible by anyone is a stretch of expectations to me. To be able to accommodate any and all then be fearful of having missed some odd ball strange expectation is just not worth the worry.

[gumtree]

Interesting question. I think it would depend on the “type” of horse operation. The way I see it most if not all boarding operations are “private”. In other words they are not a “business” that is open to the public. The general public, a person is allowed on the property by permission not by right.

Yes, a person can drive up and inquire about boarding and the owner has the right to continue the conversation or ask the person to leave. The owner of a business that is open to the general public can not do this. These types of businesses also have to be licensed and to get that license they go through an inspection and have to comply with the ADA specific to type of business.

Having owned a restaurant and bar as a side business at one time I went through the drill.

If the operation was in the business of hiring out horses by the hour, gives pony rides, etc and had a sign and or advertised as such. I would bet they would have to have a certain level of compliance. But this type of operation would most likely be required to have a business license because they are open to the public. Come to think of it I used to see signs “horses rented, pony rides” when I was a kid. Can’t think of the last time I have seen the same these days.

In most/some states a horse business is considered Agricultural. Agricultural businesses are except in whole or in part of a lot of “rules and regs” along with how it is taxed. Pennsylvania only changed its tax law classifying horse business as Ag a few years ago. After many years of trying by “pleasure/sport horse people” and this is a pretty big “horse state”. Especially in my area.

Back in the “youth movement” of the late 60s early to mid 70s I was refused service because of my “look”. Long hair, pierced ear, “dirty hippy”. Job signs that said “long haired hippies need not apply”. My, our “look” was very tame compared to now.

edit; didn’t see this was an old thread. Was a bit surprised there were so many replies and reads in such a short time.

[Where_sMyWhite]

[QUOTE=EAH;8739498]
Yes. I think if you advertise or accept general boarders that the ADA law puts you at risk. The rules are very strict. For example, if a slope is too steep then there must be a flat area a certain width every so feet for a wheelchair. The doors have to be opened with a certain amount of force. The parking should be a hard surface that a wheelchair can negotiate. Etc. Failure to do these things could mean that the whole operation could be shut down. Most barns are not designed with the ADA in mind and retrofitting can be just TOO expensive to make sense. Thus, your whole business goes up in smoke.[/QUOTE]

What you say is true but also most horse facilities are probably already ADA “friendly”. Horses and farm equipment don’t, in general (other than inside the arena) like soft footing. Horses and farm equipment like wide doors. Granted an aisle door might be challenge for me in a WC but depending on the door I could get it open and usually they’re open anyway (and if it’s that cold, I probably am not going to be out there).

Yeah, there might be a slope to the arena and/or “spectator” area but often as not, probably not.

Yes, if someone wanted to make a point of it and it is a public facility, a barn could be in trouble but again, making mountains out of mole hills for the occasional visit by a person with a mobility challenge.

[Equibrit]

This may help; http://ribbonsandredtape.blogspot.com/2012/07/ada-compliance-at-stable.html

[S1969]

[QUOTE=EAH;7973633]
What do you consider the difference between a “commercial” boarding barn and a “private” barn that advertises for boarders to the general public?[/QUOTE]

I feel like most barns have the ability to deny lessons to students for a variety of reasons; and I think that would make a big difference. E.g. there is no obligation for a boarding barn to offer lessons to each and every person who walks through the door. If a person was too big for the available horses, for example, they would not be required to add a Percheron to their lesson string.

But I also think most barns are probably below the size that would make them obligated to comply. Isn’t there a certain number of employees threshold?

[findthedistance]

Beyond the restroom issue, I’m on the side of “Come board with me!” My feed and tack rooms are not accessible, but I can come up with about four alternate solutions in the time it takes to type this post. Horse farms are generally wheel-based-device friendly. If someone is an actively involved horse owner and differently abled, that person is already working on the best way for them to access horses and horse facilities. As in the examples in this thread, training their horse to accept nontraditional handling, “all terrain” tires on the wheelchair, etc. They’re looking for a facility that will work for their purposes.

The other horses will figure out the wheelchair, crutches, etc. How many hot, hot jumpers on the A circuit pony off a bicycle, dirt bike, golf cart, pickup truck, etc. each week? How many horses start nickering when the gator or tractor pulls up to the barn or paddock? The vast majority are going to learn to accommodate in short order. The chair doesn’t leap out of the bushes like a deer. It’s being piloted by a human who is intending to move from point A to point B in a safe, logical fashion, just like all the other humans on the farm.