Bob McDonald Banned from USEF through Safe Sport

[TheMoo]

The Moo still thinks no matter how many times one posts their position, people will still disagree. The Moo wishes the repetitive posting would stop. The Moo is grateful for the meatball recipe.

[DressageD1va]

Wow this has been a whirl wind to catch up on.
whoever suggested watching “Athlete A” it was brilliantly done. Showed the athletes in an empowered way and tried to minimize Dr Nassar. He doesn’t deserve any more media attention. It also really highlighted why SS became so necessary.
Do I agree with every aspect of SS so far? No. Am I thankful that change is happening and support for our athletes is now available? Absolutely as I’m sure most of us are.

So let me attempt to wrap my brain around this whole thing. The argument is that we should be looking at SS like court proceedings? This isn’t a court case and should absolutely not be replaced by it. If there are legal issues than those things 100% need to be handled in court.
SS polices our national clubs and helps to protect vulnerable people from abuse. Some of the abuse is also illegal and requires a court case. Other abuse is an abuse of power that is very specific to those sports. By sanctioning the member of the club it’s protecting other vulnerable members of that club. Yes it could potentially impact the banned member’s ability to participate in recognized events connected with that club but it’s in no way the same as a court conviction.
I’m failing to wrap my head around how that’s confusing. I really appreciate other people comparing SS to HR in a company. Someone can be sanctioned and even fired from a company without having to go through a court case.

[KellyS]

@ACMEeventing

I was thinking the same thing. Sounds a lot like SwampYankee / LadyB (or something)

Yes! That’s the name - SwampYankee.

I’d thank you for replying but I might get accused of stealing thoughts again. You try to be polite and you end up a thought thief. :winkgrin:

[YankeeDuchess]

@NotGrandPrixYet

I said nothing about George Morris. And, as usual, I see things differently than you, because I hear what he’s writing as disparaging to SS. It appears that most of the people I know (not on here, but IRL) see his post the same way that I do. Even the ones who agreed with him whom I know have told me that this is how they view SS and wish that SS would go away and let the courts handle it. If you can find anyone who interprets the post your way, then let them post here, because I haven’t found anyone but you so far.

The issue to me is whether wishing SS would go away and let the courts handle it, or whether the raising of the standard of proof to clear and convincing or to beyond a reasonable doubt is an “acceptable” opinion to have about how the problem should be dealt with, or whether saying you would like SS to be much different and much weaker is “undermining” SS. As much as I support SS in its current configuration, I rest easy that neither of those quite significant changes would ever come to pass. I frankly doubt that RD is dumb enough to think that they would come to pass, either. So I consider his post as mostly a meaningless gesture.

I did not mean to imply that you had brought GM into it. But other posters, when I characterized that specific post of Dover’s as “not asinine”, immediately made the link that Dover was already a known pedophile supporter with offensive posts on GM. I think a teammate of DM (and Dover) should be able to “ like” an isolated, non asinine, non inflammatory post of Dover’s without being accused of endorsing every irresponsible thing he’s ever said.

[YankeeDuchess]

@Moderator 1

Once again, we don’t have any concrete evidence linking the YankeeDuchess account to any others, past or present. Her email address listed with her account easily links to a real-live person who is not anyone that anyone has “accused” her of being at any point that I’m aware of. It’s obviously easy to create multiple accounts, and I’m not guaranteeing anyone’s authenticity, but we have ZERO evidence to suggest that she’s using an alter to post under multiple identities.

So please move on from that line of discussion.

@KellyS
@RacetrackReject

@ACMEeventing

[RacetrackReject]

@ACMEeventing

I was thinking the same thing. Sounds a lot like SwampYankee / LadyB (or something)

I was thinking Lady Eboshi, but wasn’t certain if that was the correct name.

[TheMoo]

@YankeeDuchess

The issue to me is whether wishing SS would go away and let the courts handle it, or whether the raising of the standard of proof to clear and convincing or to beyond a reasonable doubt is an “acceptable” opinion to have about how the problem should be dealt with, or whether saying you would like SS to be much different and much weaker is “undermining” SS. As much as I support SS in its current configuration, I rest easy that neither of those quite significant changes would ever come to pass. I frankly doubt that RD is dumb enough to think that they would come to pass, either. So I consider his post as mostly a meaningless gesture.

I did not mean to imply that you had brought GM into it. But other posters, when I characterized that specific post of Dover’s as “not asinine”, immediately made the link that Dover was already a known pedophile supporter with offensive posts on GM. I think a teammate of DM (and Dover) should be able to “ like” an isolated, non asinine, non inflammatory post of Dover’s without being accused of endorsing every irresponsible thing he’s ever said.

We know your issue, we know your opinion. Quit posting it because our minds are made up. Can you not agree to disagree?

[YankeeDuchess]

@TheMoo

We know your issue, we know your opinion. Quit posting it because our minds are made up. Can you not agree to disagree?

That post was a response to GrandPrix, not you.

Did you miss the post in which I said that I was not posting in order change the minds of the handful of posters active in the last day or so? Did you get the reference to “mind like a steel trap”?

[alicen]

@YankeeDuchess

This has to do with a presumption of innocence. You and I don’t need to presume he’s innocent, either one of them [McDonald and Milne] until after the arbitration. Only the arbitration judge has to give those two men a presumption of innocence going into the arbitration.

I confess, YD, to blowing by many of your lengthier posts in an attempt to become current with this thread. I checked in at post #482 and found this baffling statement about our not needing to presume that M and M are innocent until after the arbitration. !!?? Really, it’s stuff like that that drives your readers crazy.

[TheMoo]

@YankeeDuchess

That post was a response to GrandPrix, not you.

Did you miss the post in which I said that I was not posting in order change the minds of the handful of posters active in the last day or so? Did you get the reference to “mind like a steel trap”?

I do but it’s clear you don’t. “Mind like a steel trap” is a simile used to describe someone who is very quick to catch on to new ideas and concepts. Quick witted, having a great skill in learning are other attributes described with that simile. Not someone who is closed minded.

For example, your posts in this thread demonstrate that you don’t not have a mind like a steel trap.

[FitzE]

@TheMoo

We know your issue, we know your opinion. Quit posting it because our minds are made up. Can you not agree to disagree?

But do we? I thought I did until I was educating about sealioning.

"Rhetorically, sealioning fuses persistent questioning—often about basic information, information easily found elsewhere, or unrelated or tangential points—with a loudly-insisted-upon commitment to reasonable debate. It disguises itself as a sincere attempt to learn and communicate. Sealioning thus works both to exhaust a target’s patience, attention, and communicative effort, and to portray the target as unreasonable. While the questions of the “sea lion” may seem innocent, they’re intended maliciously and have harmful consequences.

—”‰Amy Johnson, Berkman Klein Center for Internet & Society (May 2019)[SUP][9]"[/SUP]

Also:

“A subtle form of trolling involving “bad-faith” questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. If your bait is successful, the other party may engage, painstakingly laying out their logic and evidence in the false hope of helping someone learn. In fact you are attempting to harass or waste the time of the other party, and have no intention of truly entertaining their point of view. Instead, you react to each piece of information by misinterpreting it or requesting further clarification, ad nauseum.”

Finally, it’s helpful to remember the sealioner’s goal: Only wants to exhaust you and get the last word. [ETA: and on boards like this, get the thread shut down for certain topics]

I cannot even imagine a more classic case than what’s gone down on this thread (and others involving the same technique by the same poster).

[YankeeDuchess]

@alicen

I confess, YD, to blowing by many of your lengthier posts in an attempt to become current with this thread. I checked in at post #482 and found this baffling statement about our not needing to presume that M and M are innocent until after the arbitration. !!?? Really, it’s stuff like that that drives your readers crazy.

Really?  Does Lauren Kanarek owe Michael Barisone the presumption of innocence just because he has not had his trial? 

     I think the presumption of innocence applies to the judge, the jury, or the retired judge serving as arbitrator; the adjudicator that makes the call.  

     Since I’m not the arbitrator, I personally don’t feel I’m  obligated to presume RM innocent, and I think that there is less than a 1% chance the ban will be overturned on appeal. I also think Michael Barisone is guilty of attempted murder. 

      It’s other posters who insist that RM has already had his formal, impartial adjudication already and not only are assuming he’s guilty, as I am, but are also condemning his wife for continuing to give him the presumption of innocence for another month or two. My position overall is a reaction against the majority view that anyone who holds back from full on condemnation of RM right now is a pedophile supporter. I’m just saying it’s OK if people, especially the shell shocked wife, wish to hold back the condemnation until after the arbitration. Condemnation is OK (unless you’re the judge!) but not morally REQUIRED at pain of being labeled a pedophile supporter at this point. 

   So:  for any one not the arbitrator, one can presume him innocent or not at this point. I myself think he’s guilty, but do not accuse DM of being a pedophile supporter if she wants to wait a month or two. 

     I have readers?  It feels like I have only haters, what with the classy animal fart cartoons and all.

[TheMoo]

@FitzE of course we do. Her opinion is always the opposite of the opinion of a logical and rational person.

Its also in flux. Do we really need to know more?

[YankeeDuchess]

@TheMoo

I do but it’s clear you don’t. “Mind like a steel trap” is a simile used to describe someone who is very quick to catch on to new ideas and concepts. Quick witted, having a great skill in learning are other attributes described with that simile. Not someone who is closed minded.

For example, your posts in this thread demonstrate that you don’t not have a mind like a steel trap.

  So glad you took it as a compliment!

[ladyj79]

@FitzE

But do we? I thought I did until I was educating about sealioning.

"Rhetorically, sealioning fuses persistent questioning—often about basic information, information easily found elsewhere, or unrelated or tangential points—with a loudly-insisted-upon commitment to reasonable debate. It disguises itself as a sincere attempt to learn and communicate. Sealioning thus works both to exhaust a target’s patience, attention, and communicative effort, and to portray the target as unreasonable. While the questions of the “sea lion” may seem innocent, they’re intended maliciously and have harmful consequences.

—”‰Amy Johnson, Berkman Klein Center for Internet & Society (May 2019)[SUP][9]"[/SUP]

Also:

“A subtle form of trolling involving “bad-faith” questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. If your bait is successful, the other party may engage, painstakingly laying out their logic and evidence in the false hope of helping someone learn. In fact you are attempting to harass or waste the time of the other party, and have no intention of truly entertaining their point of view. Instead, you react to each piece of information by misinterpreting it or requesting further clarification, ad nauseum.”

Finally, it’s helpful to remember the sealioner’s goal: Only wants to exhaust you and get the last word. [ETA: and on boards like this, get the thread shut down for certain topics]

I cannot even imagine a more classic case than what’s gone down on this thread (and others involving the same technique by the same poster).

Great term, glad to learn it!! And very apt!

Also why I internally block a couple coth posters once the madness sets in, or the calls to censor or close a thread

[FitzE]

FWIW, I wanted to crop out the farting bit but it’s not my image and I didn’t think it right to alter the artist’s piece. Plus, it is clearly not the point of the image (not that you have ever cared to stick to the main point of…anything). The only important part was the sea lion. But it wasn’t for you anyway so don’t sweat a little cartoon flatulence.

[FitzE]

@ladyj79

Great term, glad to learn it!! And very apt!

Also why I internally block a couple coth posters once the madness sets in.

Once I realized this was a thing and we had been subject to a bravura performance - nay, several - thereof, it all made sense. But, wow! What a hobby.

[TheMoo]

@YankeeDuchess

So glad you took it as a compliment!

Um because it is…

https://www.idioms.online/have-a-mind-like-a-steel-trap/

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/mind-like-a-steel-trap--have-a

https://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/19/messages/943.html

You can find a plethora of other sources that say the same thing on the google machine.

[skydy]

@FitzE

But do we? I thought I did until I was educating about sealioning.

"Rhetorically, sealioning fuses persistent questioning—often about basic information, information easily found elsewhere, or unrelated or tangential points—with a loudly-insisted-upon commitment to reasonable debate. It disguises itself as a sincere attempt to learn and communicate. Sealioning thus works both to exhaust a target’s patience, attention, and communicative effort, and to portray the target as unreasonable. While the questions of the “sea lion” may seem innocent, they’re intended maliciously and have harmful consequences.

—”‰Amy Johnson, Berkman Klein Center for Internet & Society (May 2019)[SUP][9]"[/SUP]

Also:

“A subtle form of trolling involving “bad-faith” questions. You disingenuously frame your conversation as a sincere request to be enlightened, placing the burden of educating you entirely on the other party. If your bait is successful, the other party may engage, painstakingly laying out their logic and evidence in the false hope of helping someone learn. In fact you are attempting to harass or waste the time of the other party, and have no intention of truly entertaining their point of view. Instead, you react to each piece of information by misinterpreting it or requesting further clarification, ad nauseum.”

Finally, it’s helpful to remember the sealioner’s goal: Only wants to exhaust you and get the last word. [ETA: and on boards like this, get the thread shut down for certain topics]

I cannot even imagine a more classic case than what’s gone down on this thread (and others involving the same technique by the same poster).

Very interesting. I had no idea that there was a term for it. Why “sea lioning” I wonder.

[TheMoo]

@YankeeDuchess

So glad you took it as a compliment!

Because it is. The google machine can confirm. My post with links got hung up in the spam folder.