Bombproof ex-hunt horse loses sanity when hearing a hound whilst loose in turnout.

[Lieslot]

I posted about my horse being unhandleable in the horsecare section and was advised to get the opinion of people that hunt & have hunt-horse experience.

Apologies this may end up being long, but I wish to describe his behavior as precise as possible. I think if he were human, he’d need a psychologist.

History, bought horse 5 years ago as a 10yr old to be bombproof hacker for my husband and low level dressage for myself. He totally lived up to this expectation so far, never put a foot wrong, as bombproof as it gets, could easily have been a police horse. Easy to handle, not your cuddly horse, more the ‘get-on with things’, confident no-fuss horse.
He was previously owned by a man, and used as the local whip’s horse and from what I’ve been told a total gem at his job. His routine was stalled at night, tacked up in the morning & hacked to the hunt. Never had issues.

We’ve never encountered any real problems with this horse, always correct & totally safe. A few years ago we moved and are surrounded by farmland. Lately the farmer brings his hound around when working the land. The hound is perfectly well behaved and does not leave the farmer. As soon as my horse hears or sees the hound, he loses his brain. I don’t understand what happens, it’s like a metamorphosis. I don’t recognize him anymore. He will start galloping, bucking, spinning, rearing, kicking, all whilst keeping the hound in eyesight. My other horse doesn’t understand the commotion and eventually starts running too and they injure themselves or each other. So each time the hound is in the neighborhood, I go out to bring them into their stalls. But I can barely catch him. And once caught, it’s near enough impossible to lead him to my barn, as that means not being able to keep his eyes on the hound. Both boys are big, 18hh & just under 18.2hh WB’s. I grab both tight by the headcollar, but my exhunts horse will lift me off my feet and drag me back to the fence to keep the hound in sight. It’s actually getting a bit scary as I’ve got no control. He’s impossible to reason with, winds up my other horse and I’ve already been sandwiched between them and knocked face down in the dust.
I don’t easily give up, so I keep trying until I eventually have both in their stalls. But my exhunt horse will not settle once I eventually got them in. He wants to get out, as he seems frustrated he can’t see the hound anymore. I’ve not used any drugs yet, but have been thinking about it.
Once farmer & hound are gone, I lead both out to pasture again and he will run back to the precise spot where he was last capable of seeing the hound, stand there snorting for a few times, and eventually turn around, sigh and start grazing again as if nothing ever happened, back to the bombproof totally sane horse I’ve always known.

I discussed the issue with the farmer and asked if I could hack him to his farm or if it’s okay for me to let him sniff the hound, meet him etc, to resolve the issue. And that’s where it gets weird. Under the saddle, there is NO issue. I’ve hacked him on the road whilst the hound would be following us for a while, overtaking us, even be howling (sorry, not sure that’s the correct terminology, not familiar with hounds & hunts) and NOTHING happens. I’ve accidentally ran across farmer & hound on trails and at the very most, he lifts up his shoulders a little, gets alert, ears move back & forward, but that’s it, he doesn’t even start jogging, he stays calm, yet alert and doesn’t put a foot wrong.
I’ve also met said hound whilst in farmer’s truck and I had horse under saddle, stopped to have a chat, let him sniff the hound and again no problem.

Is this normal behavior for an ex-hunt/ex-whip horse. Will this get better?
Obviously I could just leave both out and let him sweat it out, but I’m concerned one day either one will have a serious injury. Bringing them in each time seems the most logic, but he’s so incredibly strong and his focus is with the hound not with me, so it’s quite a struggle leading him. He will not kick me, but just wants to go back.

I can do all the groundwork I want with him, he’s perfect, no hound in the vicinity, and there’s nothing to teach him, as he behaves perfect.

Would it make sense for us to get a houndpuppy?
I keep hoping that the more it happens, the less agitated he’ll get and eventually won’t even look up anymore, but so far that’s not the case.
I also can’t judge whether it’s fear or excitement. I can’t believe it to be fear, coz there’s certainly no fear when meeting said hound whilst under saddle. He’s got no issues with dogs in or around his pasture, just the hound is an issue.

Sorry this was so long. Any thoughts, suggestions. In the horsecare thread it was already mentioned, that this may just be him, hardwired into his brain, and may never change.
I will buy some earpuffs for turnout, so he can’t hear the hound that well. And keep a chainlead ready at the fence to put over his nose next time I attempt bringing him in under stress.

Thanks for reading this far .

[Jaegermonster]

I already posted on your other thread, so no need to post it again.
I’ve been hunting for 10 years, and whip in at two hunts currently. I’m sure the folks here that are more experienced than I will also have valuable advice for you.

[Mach_Two]

Certainly a chain will help you have control bringin the horse in.

Going to the farm to have him sniff hounds is not going to change things, the horse is not afraid of hounds, he is wanting to do what he is trained to do…keep his eye on them and go with them. If he were a field hunter, if might be different , but a good whip horse is capable of finding hounds. My whip horse, at 5, could find the hounds for me if I turned him loose and trusted him.

You might try muffling the sound, but he will still hear. Of course, when you are on him, it is easier for him to listen to you and take directions. It’s not an uncommon thing for an old foxhunter to want to go with the hounds, and whip horses, especially, keep trying to do what they are “supposed to do”

And don’t get a hound puppy…it will be booing away at things and making things worse. If you can separate your horses in turnout, and let the whip horse work it out that he can’t go with the hound on his own. Again, this is not a fear response.
It’s like a racehorse that comes to life when he hears the “call to to the post” or the crackle of the sound system…we have a 29 year old retired racehorse that got away from me last year while I was slipping through a gate, and he trotted out half way around the training track that circles the retiree pasture, stopped to stand for his count of 10, turned around, trotted 30 yards, cantered to the quarter pole (or where it would be if there were one there) and then galloped (as best as his old hocks would let him) back to the place he’s gotten away from me. Horses are creature of habit with very long memories of their past lives.

[Equibrit]

I think I’d take him hunting!

[Mach_Two]

He would LOVE that, but might frighten the rider, if they have not ridden a keen whip horse before (in the hunt field, that is)

[SLW]

Sure sounds like he is having Deja Vu and wants to follow the hound. Your idea of chain and/or separate turnout seems like a sound spot to start.

[Wheel_Whip]

I mean this kindly…

Why did you take him away from his job? If he was a successful staff’s horse, that’s what he thinks his mission is. Especially if he did it for five years. I don’t expect my heavy hunter to do the fourth at Belmont. I’m selling a hunt horse now, I want him to go to a hunter.

[Mach_Two]

The OP did not “take” the horse away from his job, she is not a hunting person, she bought the horse from a staffer…so she really had no basis of knowing that a baying hound would unwind her new horse, who was otherwise quiet and lovely, and set him to wanting to go with the sound.
Maybe the horse could not longer hunt due to an injury that stopped his hunting days but left him ridable for dressage and trail riding…whatever the situation, she came to us for help, not to be chastised flr something that is not her fault.

[Lieslot]

When we bought him, he was advertised as a safe gentleman’s hack, which was what we were looking for.
I didn’t know much about his hunting, I kept him fit during the week flatschooling him (I was a jumper back then, but he kept knocking everything down unless it was a solid x-country fence), so we had a lame attempt at dressage instead and he continued to get 3 to 4 hours hacks every sat/sun rain or shine with my husband. For jokes I took him to unaffiliated dressage shows -training & 1st level- and much to my utter surprise we consistenly hit 68-70%. Score sheets read “very talented horse, rider needs to improve”. Made sense I’d never done the real dressage-thing in my life, so he actually was the one that had me switch disciplines. And my next horse (his current buddy) is a dressage only horse and my days of jumping are a long forgotten past .

A few years back he tore his collateral ligament and was told he had 50% change of ever becoming pasture sound. Lucky for all of us he came fully sound, but then went into atrium fibrillation. Again we were lucky as against all odds (enlarged heart) vets managed to convert him and he’s been heartsound ever since. He’s also got COPD. So everything combined makes me think he’s physically not strong enough to withstand hunting. We do have a friend who’s a regular hunter and who would love to take him hunting for us, but I’m too worried, something will go wrong. I want to keep him healthy, sound and service-able at low intensity for a long time to come.
Since these hound incidents, I now come to realize he’d most likely would LOVE to go hunting, and I do feel sorry for him not getting this chance anymore, but I think it’s better for him not to do so anymore.
If I had realized that in the early days we owned him, I sure enough had friends that would have loved to take him hunting for us. I just never thought he was missing it, there was never any reason for me to think so.

I hadn’t thought of that, but I will indeed bring in ‘just’ my other horse next time and leave him out, and hope it’ll help him realize it’s the past, and he needs to move on (antromorphizing here), that’s what I hope.
It’s no fun having those out-of-control episodes, but I understand he probably can’t help it.
In the past I couldn’t care less if they were hooning around, but once you’ve nursed them through a few serious injuries, you want to wrap them in cotton wool and prefer to see calmly grazing horses. And on top of it all having to conclude you suddenly can’t handle your bombproof horse anymore, makes one feel very humble. :sadsmile:

[Mach_Two]

I feel for you, because the horse seems to be everything he was advertised to be, and likely the seller did not know how strongly he would keep reacting to his old calling! I figured he must have had an injury or condition that caused the end of his career as a whip horse…you just don’t let go of those good whip horses without really good reason.

I think you are on the right track, separating the two horses…they won’t be able to feed off each other’s excitement this way.
And even if you had friends who hunted, they may not enjoy a staff horse in the field…it’s a rare individual that goes from staffing to field in any less than a season of hunting with a very calm, firm rider. Best of luck to you. I know how humbling horses can be…my lovely 22 year old retired event horse can still toss a surprise at me, shaking his head and squealing a bit when I ride him to a new place on the farm where he can’t see his pasture buddies, whom he has bonded with for the past 6 years.

[Beverley]

I would agree he’s just keen to go. Decades ago, my seasoned hunter would jump out the back of the pasture and join the hounds if he could hear hunting in the distance. Just to show you it could be worse.

Here is a thought- assuming you bought him nearby, when that local hunt has a really, really old hound in need of retirement- give him a good home for his last years- if he’s old enough, he’ll be less inclined to take himself hunting too often (at least, that’s my working theory- make sure they give you one such!) and will become a lounge lizard around your barn. Your horse will ‘re-learn’ the deal- that for him, hounds no longer mean galloping and jumping.

Definitely DON’T get a hound puppy. It will take itself hunting who knows what, all the time, and you and your horse will be miserable.

Meanwhile, I agree, separating them as the need arises is a good short term solution.

[imissvixen]

About 45 years ago I used to take riding lessons in Western PA near the Sewickley Hunt from Everett Hensley. I was about 7 years old and they would put me on a big old chestnut gelding named Joker. The lessons were in one of those long aisled arenas. One day unbeknownst to me, the hunt passed through the barn and off Joker went out the end of the barn with me on his back and Jean DiBlasio, a very heavy person running after us. Joker was too ancient to go far and I thought it was a riot but it was clear that the old boy never forgot hunting.

[Romany]

Instead of taking on a potentially excitable and unruly hound puppy, how about talking to some local hunts and see if they have a steady older hound that would be ready for a cushy retirement at your farm, maybe even in your home?

Then the horse could get used to a hound around on the ground 24/7, and realise in good time - hopefully! - that not every hound = hunting, and the hound might enjoy chillin’ out with a horse that understands him.

Just a thought -

[Wheel_Whip]

I did not mean my comments to be a criticism of the OP. I have just seen too many non hunters buy hunt horses for the novelty. I think the OP is doing a splendid thing. The idea of a rehomed retired hound is also splendid. I would volunteer one of ours if you are in the eastern NY area. Keep up the good work. Staff horses are dear to our hearts and it is wonderful when they can have a second career. I am trying to place an injured huntsman’s horse with one of my Pony Clubbers.

[Mach_Two]

I second…or third…or fourth the idea of taking a retired hound…just expect to keep it contained, as they do tend to want to hunt, and a pack a mile off may just lure an old hound out of “retirement”

I don’t perceive that Lieslet got a retired hunter as a novelty…she was looking for a solid husband horse, and what horse has seen more goings on and is steadier under commotion than a staff horse?
My whip horse was a favorite to pony nervous 'chasers up to the paddock, when he was just 8.

[Lieslot]

Thank you all, that sounds like a smarter idea going for a retired hound rather then puppy. I’ll discuss with my husband & talk to our friend who hunts & lives close to the kennel.

I think the previous owner never realized the true value of this horse. He just owned him and he was used (I suspect under contract) for about 5 years by the local whip’s horse. The owner himself didn’t know more about hunting then I did. When we bought him, nothing much was said about his hunting past. He was very sound when vetted and when we picked him up from the sale barn, the BO called us in the office to tell us she was very sad to see him going and said his price didn’t do him right, so she wanted to be sure we realized there was nothing wrong with the horse to be sold at the price he was. We didn’t understand any of this and thought how weird. The owner sold him for financial reasons.
We found out about his apparently impeccable behavior in the hunt when we’d be doing our weekly hacks. We lived in England back then, in the midst of miles of public bridleways, and time & time again we’d come across other riders that would stop us and ask if this was “M” (easily recognizable at 18hh & remarkable face) and that’s how they’d tell us stories about him used as the whip’s horse and how they missed him at the hunt, especially the whip. The whip didn’t realize he was sold or why. It was so funny, hack after hack, we’d be asked the same question by different people.

He was hunted in Ewhurst, Surrey region, but we had bought him from a barn North of London, little did we know when we brought him to our place (also living in Ewhurst, talk about the coincidence) he was back in his usual surroundings. We called him stubborn, coz on our hack, going passed one particular farm, he always wanted to go that particular driveway and it took my husband a lot coaxing to get him passed it. Turned out, half a year later we found out that used to be his barn for years :).

[vineyridge]

These stories certainly make me see my horses and how they perceive the world in a whole new light.

[Romany]

What a great story! Thank goodness he ended up in your understanding hands - it could all have become a bit too Black Beauty (or Ginger).

He sounds like a wonderful horse!

[lolalola]

And you had him shipped over when you moved back to the US? That’s wonderful.

[Lieslot]

Yes we flew him across the Atlantic, he did not like the flight however. But I’m sure he’s happy he got to stay with us, even if it meant being stuck high-up in the sky for half a day.
He’s very dear to us, I hope we get to continue to enjoy him for many years.
PS, we are Europeans (Belgian), so there’s always a chance we may move back to some place in Europe, eventhough we have no such plans at present. But come what come, as long as his heart continues to beat, he’ll be with us wherever that may be.