Bone Spur On Navicular - PPE Help?

[TFS1120]

I’m leasing a great 8 year old KWPN. He doesn’t feel sore to me or my trainer and moves fine (he’s not the hack winner by a long shot but he has a hell of a jump!). He’s a big bodied boy, so obviously moves better as he warms up after five minutes or so.

He had x-rays taken in Europe about 8 months ago and when my vet looked at them saw a bone spur on the navicular bone in his right front. They didn’t remove his shoes for the x-rays though, so it was hard to get a complete picture.

We’re thinking about buying him so started the process of a PPE by taking x-rays of his two front feet without shoes on.

I don’t have the new x-rays - but if anyone can weigh in on having a horse with a spur on the navicular bone and what their experience has been it would be greatly appreciated. I understand proper shoeing and preventative care can help keep a horse comfortable and sound, but don’t know enough about how things like this can progress and how drastically.

Would I be buying a horse that I’ll never be able to sell again because of the spur? Or if he’s showing and winning, happy and sound - it’s all ok? I have my farrier saying it’s a no brainer and he’ll be fine with proper shoeing, and my vet saying some people run the other way with x-rays showing bone spurs but others don’t mind if the horse is performing well.

Trying to make the right decision and think with my heart AND my head

I have to sort out how to attach a photo of the old x-ray, so I’ll post this now and see if I can follow up with a photo.

[mroades]

I suggest you watch this from start to finish[URL=“http://www.thehorse.com/videos/38481/from-hoof-testers-to-mri?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=lameness&utm_campaign=11-30-2016”]

From Hoof Testers to MRI | Video | TheHorse.com

[findeight]

Have to see both x rays to compare for changes. Far as resale, it’s created enough doubt to make you ask on here. Future buyers will also question.

Whats he been doing? How high has he been jumping and how often? Bone chips anywhere are in the " it depends" category. Bothers me a bit he’s stiff to warm up at such a young age and presumably low mileage.

[gumtree]

Send the pictures to someone who specializes in these sorts of things to get an expert opinion on what the future may or may not hold.

Spurs don’t generally go away. It is a dent, how big depends on things. But the horse will always have a discounted sales value IMO and experience.

Even if a vet or 2 say it is what it is, it can be managed and should not have any real repercussions on the horse’s performance, ability to stay sound.

Interested will buyers most likely expect a pretty good discount. There are more horses for sale than there are buyers at any given time. Most buyers are of the mind set why take a chance buying one with a dent regardless of price.

[TFS1120]

[QUOTE=findeight;8959264]
Have to see both x rays to compare for changes. Far as resale, it’s created enough doubt to make you ask on here. Future buyers will also question.

Whats he been doing? How high has he been jumping and how often? Bone chips anywhere are in the " it depends" category. Bothers me a bit he’s stiff to warm up at such a young age and presumably low mileage.[/QUOTE]

Concerned because I know a horse his age won’t vet completely clean, that’s dreaming :), but trying to gage what major red flags are for buyers. For me, worst case scenerio I have a great friend and horse for my mom as he gets older, best case scenario I have a horse that makes waves in the hunter ring.

Luckily the old xray had the spur looking ‘pointy’ and the new xray shows it rounded out. Maybe it changed or maybe it was taking a better picture with his shoes off.

In Europe he was jumping 1.30-1.40, came over in May, has been doing 3’ - 3’6’’ work transitioning to hunters. We jump 2-3 times a week, only 3 full courses a week - the other times it’s just pole/gymnastic work. It’s not that he’s stiff when he starts out, more like getting him to ‘pay attention’, warm up, focus, and light flexing to get him supple and moving/listening to my aids. No stumbling, no toe to heel stepping. Just a (seemingly) happy horse with a not so happy xray on that right front.

[TFS1120]

Link to Old X-Ray

https://s14.postimg.org/miwzqaqxd/Screen_Shot_2016_12_03_at_3_16_49_PM.png

[TFS1120]

Thank you for sharing!

[findeight]

8 is still relatively young unless he’s racked up a lot of mileage and hard use. Particularly in WBs that typically get started later and not pushed as youngsters.

Agree it’s a good idea to get a second opinion on both the new and old x rays from a specialist before writing any checks. Even great farm vets don’t see enough of each specific injury to offer an educated prognosis.

[IPEsq]

The video mroades posted is very good. Only way to know for sure how bad things are is with MRI. That will tell you if it’s starting to piss off any soft tissue at least. That said, of all breeds, Dutch horses would be ones I would be more forgiving on for navicular rads. It’s common that they show some abnormalities but unlike some other breeds, relatively less common that it becomes a clinical problem.

[Snowflake]

I have a mare with navicular bone spurs and I can honestly tell you, I would never, ever knowingly buy a horse with this condition. It’s usually degenerative and gets worse with use and age. Depending on the location of the spur, you can get involvement of the DDFT. I’ve poured thousands into my mare - lameness specialists, specialty shoeing, rads/imaging, osphos, tildren, bute, previcox, supplements, etc. and I have a really expensive pasture pet. She’s my biggest heartbreak because she’s a great mare, and I maintain her because I love her, but her shoes alone cost $300 every six weeks just to be somewhat pasture sound for the last ten years.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=IPEsq;8960646]
The video mroades posted is very good. Only way to know for sure how bad things are is with MRI. That will tell you if it’s starting to piss off any soft tissue at least. That said, of all breeds, Dutch horses would be ones I would be more forgiving on for navicular rads. It’s common that they show some abnormalities but unlike some other breeds, relatively less common that it becomes a clinical problem.[/QUOTE]

Just chiming in to ask… is there a reason you say that? I am sure you know it, but the Dutch shares blood with many other registries… Is there someone else that has said/noted that?

Most bone-spurs I would say ‘it depends’… except when it is inside the hoof. I would not touch a horse with navicular bone spurs, especially if you wanted a competition career out of the horse. Ironically, of the few horses I’ve known with navicular bone spurs, most all have been KPWN or immediate dutch descent and none were sound very long; not just the shoes that’s expensive - the maintenance is insane: injections, shockwave, tildren, osphos, and once it becomes clinical there are usually other structures involved like, as Snowflake said, the DDFT, before you know it the suspensories are sore from the inflammation/involvement…

It is very much degenerative, the inflammation degrades tissue around the area, causes soreness in other structures, and I have known many boarders who have pumped money into their horses to make them servicably sound… IME there is not a happy/sound outcome with navicular bone spurs.

[IPEsq]

In my horse search, I considered a few KWPNs and based on review of those rads, discussion with fellow horse owners, trainers, and a few vets, there was a theme of it being common to see at least some sclerosis on the navicular rads of KWPNs. That said, I did pass on a couple of them anyway (with these rads being one of the factors), but it seemed to be a little more common for that breed to show some changes. That said, there are limits to the degree of changes allowed for breeding stallions, and the registry also puts some limits on OCDs.

There are some older studies that showed something like 87% of KWPN horses between age 3-4 having some changes on navicular rads. This paper is interesting.

http://elib.tiho-hannover.de/dissertations/diesterbecku_ss06.pdf

It was just on the basis of unscientific personal experience in the practice of a some vets that it was suggested to me that it’s not as much of a red flag to see some changes in a Dutch horse as opposed to some others, say Hanoverian (although the attached paper suggests that the presence of Hanoverian bloodlines has some impact on the frequency of changes in a Dutch horse, as compared to TB blood). Perhaps this is because the KWPN registry started putting restrictions on the grade of Xray changes breeding stock could have–this seemed to have kept the risk of having higher grade changes in offspring to more of a minimum.

Of course, “changes” that aren’t red flags doesn’t necessarily mean something like “spur” wouldn’t be a red flag.

[beowulf]

thanks IPEsq for the explanation. I wasn’t doubting or saying you were wrong, just curious on your perspective. Will be reading the paper tonight with cat and cocoa

[vxf111]

I have also repeatedly heard (including from the amazing, now-retired vet who sold me mine) that a lot of Dutch horses have not-ideal radiographic images of their feet. Whether you can live with that or not is up to you.

[hunterrider33]

I wouldn’t do it, if it were a spur in the hock or elsewhere I’d say maybe. But I have one recovering from a DDFT and it’s not something you want to deal!

If you have the funds to do so I’d do the MRI, you could see how it’s effecting the soft tissue and it will give you a much better idea. Maybe it’s in a decent spot and with some maintenance he may hold up for A bit. But if you can’t do the MRI and see for sure, I’d pass.

[fordtraktor]

a visible spur is different than the old “navicular changes”. I bought a horse with “navicular changes” as a 4 year old – a well respected vet told me it was one of those things and may well never be an issue. it was mild. I had that horse for over 20 years and he had a few problems during that time but navicular wasn’t one of them.

I have a horse now whose X rays were completely clean up to age 19. at age 23 he is totally unrideable due to navicular.

it is hard to predict the future. I wouldn’t consider 8 to be the kind of age where you start to think arthritis is going to be present. 12 or 15, maybe, but 8 is still young!

[vxf111]

I agree 100% with fordtractor that “navicular changes” aren’t necessarily the same as a spur. I would be far more concerned about a spur for the reason others have mentioned-- possible damage to the DDFT. But I did want to chime in in support of the broader statement IPEsq commented on-- that for whatever reason Dutch horses seem to be more likely to have radiographic “anomalies” in the feet, even when young and with no accompanying clinical symptoms.

[theautumnleaves]

I wanted to resurrect this thread as I’m in the same boat…

I just had a PPE ($$$$ one) on a lovely 4 year old Dutch mare by an equine surgical center vet (specializes in lameness). Plenty of the lollipops ( synovial invaginations) and I was ready to take the risk and buy her since I have also heard about Dutch WBs and their navicular bones being great PPE vet “stumpers”. He looked at each scan, on site at the breeders barn.

My vet found more though ( he is also at a top surgical center where I live and specializes in lameness) - while he was calmly inside his office - and he found a bone fragment (osseous body) off the wing of the navicular on 2 films. Smooth, but he thinks it was from a past impar ligament strain.

So I’m sadly, very sadly, walking away. Of course, I’ve been scouring the internet looking for places where someone made the jump…and alas, I haven’t found any.

Original poster…what did you do?

[TFS1120]

I feel terrible I’m only replying to this now - I occasionally check my junk mail to make sure nothing important winds up there and saw your reply.

I’m sorry you had to walk away from your mare. I’m not a vet and in no way qualified to dish out advice, but if I was looking at a 4 y.o. that was already showing the issues you raised I would have walked away too.

After a full PPE and getting our hands on an older set of x-rays (and taking our own after pulling shoes) my vet didn’t see ANY changes over the course of 3 years. The spur is round, and after having two other vets look at them and tell me they didn’t even see a spur, I was pretty sold. I could somewhat see what my vet was referring to, but NOTHING like the research I did on the good ol internet. He didn’t have any lollipops, flexed fine and had clean ultrasounds and x-rays minus the tiny ghostly round ‘bone spur’. We also brought in our farrier for his opinion and he gave the green light as well. I looked up his show record in Europe and the US and he didn’t have any large gaps that would indicate an injury.

My vet is great and extremely thorough. I would say it all comes down to what your intentions are with the horse you’re looking to purchase. If I was looking for a horse to bring along, show, and sell for a profit, or still a junior with a very competitive circuit tour lined up, I would have walked away from my guy. But - he was relatively inexpensive, has an amazing personality, is very talented and if he ever isn’t able to perform at the level I would like to compete at (which is not often!) I have a super sweet horse for my mom to trail ride and hack around.

So I guess I’m the first to take the plunge! I will keep everyone updated as we progress, but (knock on wood) so far things are going swimmingly.

I hope you find your dream horse, he/she is out there and I think you made the right decision to wait.

[TFS1120]

I feel terrible I’m only replying to this now - I occasionally check my junk mail to make sure nothing important winds up there and saw your reply.

I’m sorry you had to walk away from your mare. I’m not a vet and in no way qualified to dish out advice, but if I was looking at a 4 y.o. that was already showing the issues you raised I would have walked away too.

After a full PPE and getting our hands on an older set of x-rays (and taking our own after pulling shoes) my vet didn’t see ANY changes over the course of 3 years. The spur is round, and after having two other vets look at them and tell me they didn’t even see a spur, I was pretty sold. I could somewhat see what my vet was referring to, but NOTHING like the research I did on the good ol internet. He didn’t have any lollipops, flexed fine and had clean ultrasounds and x-rays minus the tiny ghostly round ‘bone spur’. We also brought in our farrier for his opinion and he gave the green light as well. I looked up his show record in Europe and the US and he didn’t have any large gaps that would indicate an injury.

My vet is great and extremely thorough. I would say it all comes down to what your intentions are with the horse you’re looking to purchase. If I was looking for a horse to bring along, show, and sell for a profit, or still a junior with a very competitive circuit tour lined up, I would have walked away from my guy. But - he was relatively inexpensive, has an amazing personality, is very talented and if he ever isn’t able to perform at the level I would like to compete at (which is not often!) I have a super sweet horse for my mom to trail ride and hack around.

So I guess I’m the first to take the plunge! I will keep everyone updated as we progress, but (knock on wood) so far things are going swimmingly.

I hope you find your dream horse, he/she is out there and I think you made the right decision to wait.