Bosal measurements & any advice?

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7102722]

I noticed that Martin Black, in his Introduction to the A-Pen DVD, is using an opening rein on both his snaffle bit horses and his bosal horses. He is leg-yielding, getting the horse to step under behind, before the horse makes the turn after the cow.
The leg yield anchors the horse’s weight on the outside hind, from which he will strike off into canter/gallop after the cow.
My ‘helper’ showed me this, noticing also that Martin did not have to set his two-rein horse up for the turns on cattle to get them to turn on the outside hind.[/QUOTE]

I’d meant to watch that video before the clinic I’m riding in with Martin in a few weeks, so I’ll keep my eyes open for what you’re describing.

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7102722]
So, I went back and watched some Bruce Sandifer video, since Bruce advocates never using an opening rein at all. I noticed that his horse, while it operates beautifully on a feel, and is NEVER pulled around, does not step under laterally with his hind feet very well. Very big difference between Mr. Sandifer’s horse behind (in any maneuver, walking on a circle or making any sort of turn) and Buck’s horses behind, Martin’s horses behind, and Bryan Neubert’s horses behind. Buck’s, Martin’s, and Bryan’s horses (green colts to two-rein or bridle horses) were very fluid stepping under behind, unlike Mr. Sandifer’s two-rein horse.[/QUOTE]

If you’re looking at the intro video:
http://www.eclectic-horseman.com/mercantile/product_info.php?products_id=631
…Bruce doesn’t struggle to set his horse’s hind leg under at 0:52 or 18:00, which part are you referring to?

I will say that it isn’t necessarily anything I’ve seen on this vid or the other Eclectic Horseman series DVDs that draws my eye, it’s his explanations of how the gear works. That’s allowed me to make more progress in the last two weeks than a couple of years of following Bucks DVDs. Likewise, despite much prep I got very little out of my clinic with Buck, but came home with pages upon pages of notes from Bruce. I suspect it’s a personal thing, you folks are obviously meshing well with Bucks teachings.

@Fillabeana;7102722

As far as having an opinion, sure, go have one. Bryan Neubert talks about ‘two hands on a bridle bit’ in one spot on my dvd, saying that Bill Dorrance and Bill Van Norman both told him, ‘don’t let someone else tell you that you can’t do that, if you need to get that lateral move working again then use two bridle reins.’
After all, ‘proper’ dressage in a double bridle (while not a spade) makes use of two reins on the bridle bit. When the horse is REALLY well trained, some of the ‘high school’ aficionados will go to one hand on the curb rein.

There are definitely many opinions on the subject. I personally just can’t rationalize what happens on the bit end with two reins when you do the demo I mention above. Two reins is why there’s a two rein phase, literally.

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7102722]
I have a problem with the idea of paying to be instructed in ‘biomechanics’ of Californio Horsemanship when I see photos of a horse turning left with all his weight dumped on his left side…
http://www.terryborton.com/My_Homepage_Files/IMG_102.JPG
and turning a cow not just late (as in not mirroring the cow, but playing catch-up) but on the wrong lead as well because the horse has not likely been set up for the turn:
http://www.terryborton.com/My_Homepage_Files/IMG_101.jpg
This has nothing to do with the quality of rawhide braiding…but I’m not interested in learning ‘how to use the hackamore’ from him.[/QUOTE]

Wearing the wrong kind of hat too! I wouldn’t judge anyone from a couple of photos, not exactly the most comprehensive website in the world. Don’t know him in the slightest, mind you.

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7102722]
As far as bending deep, stepping under behind, and following a feel with a lead rope, then an opening rein, Bill Dorrance is quite firm in describing these as basic, fundamental moves in his 'True Horsemanship Through Feel" book. In his book, you teach that horse to soften (as Monstrpony describes above) even before you ask for the hind end to step under laterally.[/QUOTE]

Random aside, but I never much got along with that book. I’ve heard folks say that to because Leslie Desmond’s interpretation has left the essence of things out.

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7102722]
That move, that lateral step-under, is the only way the horse can make posturally sound/athletic turns without damaging his body, whether it’s a 20 meter circle or a rollback.
Once you’re in the two-rein or bridle, you should be able to get that lateral softness/step under with a small move right near the saddle horn. But if that horse isn’t stepping deep, you need to go get that working before you go on to anything else.
In fact, in the roping class, Buck had those of us in snaffle bits using one hand on the reins, one hand on the rope coils, asking our horses to step over like that, to hold a soft feel, etc. so it isn’t like Buck, Bill Dorrance, Martin Black, Bryan Neubert are trying to teach that you are always supposed to use a big opening rein. Just that the move is basic to biomechanical soundness, and you need to do what you need to do to get it working, any time you lose it.[/QUOTE]

Stepping under the body shadow needn’t always be a huge move, though, and it needn’t come from the rein. Reins should define the channel for bend, but the horse should be moving off your body to make that lateral engaging step. Else the family of lateral work done in counterbend is very unnecessarily difficult, where it’s comparatively straightforward if the rein simply defines the limits of bend and not where that bend is taken.

[aktill]

Test

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=aktill;7103722]
Test[/QUOTE]

Passed.

[aktill]

Thanks! Had real trouble posting yesterday…kept getting server errors.

[Pocket_Pony]

I will say that it isn’t necessarily anything I’ve seen on this vid or the other Eclectic Horseman series DVDs that draws my eye, it’s his explanations of how the gear works. That’s allowed me to make more progress in the last two weeks than a couple of years of following Bucks DVDs.

I agree about Buck’s DVDs so far, if we’re talking about learning about equipment, although I haven’t seen all of them. IMO, there’s sooooo much to learn about this approach/tradition that he maybe forgot what he already knows. Meaning, things that might seem old hat or very basic to him are things that people need to learn about and he doesn’t mention in the videos. Again, though, I have only seen a couple of them - but after watching two of Mike Bridges’ DVDs my head was swimming with the information that he shared on the hows and whys of equipment. When I watched Buck’s DVDs, I enjoyed watching him work with horses but I didn’t feel like a lot of in-depth information on the equipment was presented. Now the 7 Clinics DVDs, those have helped me immensely and I won’t even lend them out to friends!!!

Random aside, but I never much got along with that book.

I’ve tried to read “True Horsemanship Through Feel” so many times but I kept getting stuck and just not getting it. Granted, I don’t learn as well from reading as I do from watching (which is why I love Buck’s 7 Clinics DVDs), but it just didn’t work for me. Since going to the Buck clinic, I went back for another read and am now getting it, but I’m not all the way through it yet.

Adam, in that video you posted of Buck, I did notice the first couple of times that his horse’s head was off vertical, but after that I thought it looked good. I couldn’t tell very well, but since the horse is in the two rein, would it be safe to assume that he was only using the bosal there, not the bridle rein?

[aktill]

[QUOTE=monstrpony;7102885]
That’s why getting stuff solid in the snaffle is important–for the rider, as much as the horse. If you shortcut to the bosal just because you want to get there, and haven’t taught yourself how to help the horse through the transision … well, the horse will quickly tell you that you’ve made a boo-boo (and you risk letting your horse discover how much more powerless you are in the bosal). I can easily see why someone who has made that transition a lot, who really understands riding with feel, could start a horse in a bosal. But anyone who has not built that foundation in themself will benefit from working in the snaffle first (particularly people transitioning from more positive contact disciplines–letting go can be hard to do!).[/QUOTE]

I’ve made my points on mechanics, but I did want to relate Buck’s answer when I asked him in a clinic why he chooses to start horses in a snaffle rather than a hackamore. He said that it was because a horse needed to get used to a bit in it’s mouth at some point, and he wanted that to be up front rather than at the two-rein phase (a horse started in a bosal having it’s first bit at the two-rein phase). He directly said that it wasn’t because there’s any issue with starting a horse in the bosal.

Buck’s progression for him to train a horse, in an ideal world, was about 2 yrs in the snaffle, a few months in one bosal, then on to the two-rein. He doesn’t like sidelining a “payroll” horse at the two-rein phase just for bit adjustment, and finds that snaffle horses go on to something like a half-breed with minimal fuss.

@Fillabeana;7103058

And I think one of the strengths of the bosal is that it can be used to give signals that are LIKE the snaffle does (lateral, opening rein) and LIKE the bridle bit will be (neck reining).

A snaffle is a strong lateral-only tool, where a bosal is a mild lateral tool with moderate longitudinal action. A snaffle is also largely functional used one rein at a time (save pulling the bit through the mouth), where a bosal (as demonstrated) is not.

As such, the DISADVANTAGE of a bosal is that a horse will require more explanation of lateral signals than in a snaffle (or sidepull). That will either require more finesse or more time; people that choose neither are those who developed the term “bluff”.

The ADVANTAGE of the bosal is that the longitudinal interaction between the heel knot and the nose button actually encourages the horse to telescope the neck and extend the poll. That just isn’t possible in the snaffle mechanically; a rider has to finesse that action from their body after the snaffle ensures lateral freedom.

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7103058]
If I’m going to take riding instruction in any style/equipment of riding, I want to know how to get the horse on a feel, releasing a brace laterally at the poll, stepping laterally underneath himself, and ultimately collecting himself.
What I saw Mr. Sandifer do in the DVD I have, was show a horse on a feel, releasing his poll laterally, and the horse was truly front-end-up collected. But the base where the horse needs to be really smooth stepping under laterally behind was just not there, and not addressed at all.[/QUOTE]

Which DVD was that again? I only ask because a good chunk of my notes from Bruce’s clinic are devote to making sure that a horse is not leaning down on his inside shoulder and is standing up properly before doing any directional work.

[Fillabeana]

I wouldn’t judge anyone from a couple of photos, not exactly the most comprehensive website in the world. Don’t know him in the slightest, mind you.

I might take a closer look in person, if I had the opportunity. There seems to be a softness, something pleasant between him and his horse.

But, if this person is going to put photos on his website to represent himself, and his abilities and approach, I would assume that he is going to be careful not to show a horse doing something wrong. There’s not one photo of a horse turning with his balance backwards, but two.

The assumption that he’s going to teach you to have your horse doing things in agreement with his representative photos could be wrong, and that’s where you go see, before you sign up for a clinic.

Anyway, there’s a reason I’m going to make a judgement from a couple of photos…knowing that I could be off. If you CAN see that these photos show the opposite of how your horse should be balancing/using himself properly on a circle, and turning a cow, why would you use those photos on the page advertising your clinics SPECIFICALLY described as such:

understanding biomechanics
and how to use it to align the structures of the
horse to aid the horse in finding balance…

And no, I don’t know him either.
But I do appreciate the expression on his horse’s face.

As for your posted Buck video, I don’t much like it either.
However, I never heard him speaking about keeping the horse’s ears level in 2010, which is the year I took my first clinic from him and also the year the video you posted was made.

I didn’t go to a clinic in 2011, but in 2012 he was pretty adamant about the horse’s ears being level, as he was this year.

My Bruce Sandifer footage was taken off the Horseman’s Gazette Issue 8. Not long after his intro, he walk his two-rein horse in a circle to the left that looks to be maybe 10 meters, no more than 15 meters, and his horse is absolutely not stepping laterally underneath himself as he should in a circle this size.
He also mentions that he doesn’t want to pull a horse’s head around, because that ends up interfering with the horse’s shoulders. Absolutely. Exactly. Pulling his head around will dump his weight on his forehand, and he won’t be able to use his hind end to lift the front out of the way. But what he’s missing, is that when your horse can yield deeply (laterally) like that without pulling, you are developing the foundation of the horse being able to smoothly step under laterally with his rear end.
I went back and saw a marked difference between his horse and ‘the other guys’ horses, with how fluidly their hind end would step under laterally.

I did see Mr. Sandifer showing a lot of beautiful things with his horse. He is operating his horse on a feel- which I’d say 80% of traveling clinicians, even those who ‘studied’ with Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrance, don’t do.
He is clear about not purposely fuzzing his horses up so they flee his signals in an ‘instant response’ sort of state- he wants his horses calm and attentive.
At one point, my DVD was slowed WAY down, and the horse stepped out of a halt into a trot that was very much on the forehand…for about two steps. Mr. Sandifer immediately corrected it to get the horse to balance back on his hind end.
So yeah, I can see that you might get a whole lot out of his clinics.
I just think that he’s missing something major with using an opening rein (and later, not needing an opening rein to do it) to get that horse really deep, laterally.

[Fillabeana]

And Pocket, I noticed on your Yoga For Equestrians facebook page that it looks like you have a crossunder/bitless bridle on Mac.

Dr. Deb speaks rather poorly of these; the crossunder creates leverage that doesn’t release like a regular rein should (even like a curb rein does), and the way the reins cross underneath can confuse a horse as far as where to ‘go’ to release the pull.

Now, she’s all for a sidepull. If that’s what’s there, fantastic. A sidepull isn’t going to confuse things when you go to a snaffle bit or a bosal.

So, anywho, I just thought I’d add a little more advice you didn’t ask for!!

[monstrpony]

Aktill–Your information is spot-on, I really appreciate your mastery of both the horsemanship and the biomechanics, and your ability to articulate it so beautifully. But you’re forgetting a bit that this thread was started by someone relatively new to this kind of horsemanship, and that it is about going from the snaffle to the bosal for the first time. In a training ideal, the rider issues are absent because the rider knows all of the ins and outs. For someone preparing to make the transition from snaffle to bosal for the first time, there are some other considerations. What Buck says for himself about starting in the snaffle vs the bosal useful to know, but perhaps somewhat less relevant.

[Pocket_Pony]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7103933]
And Pocket, I noticed on your Yoga For Equestrians facebook page that it looks like you have a crossunder/bitless bridle on Mac.

Dr. Deb speaks rather poorly of these; the crossunder creates leverage that doesn’t release like a regular rein should (even like a curb rein does), and the way the reins cross underneath can confuse a horse as far as where to ‘go’ to release the pull.

Now, she’s all for a sidepull. If that’s what’s there, fantastic. A sidepull isn’t going to confuse things when you go to a snaffle bit or a bosal.

So, anywho, I just thought I’d add a little more advice you didn’t ask for!![/QUOTE]

I’m posting from my phone so reply will be short.

I’ve used the bitless bridle off and on over the years with good results. With Mac, my mustang, I only use it for trail riding and when wet trail ride he’s on the buckle 99% of the time so there’s really no "contact. " I do get the comment about it not releasing well as I did start to notice that the more I paid attention. I do have a sidepull and am going to dig it out and give it a try.

Also, while I am new to this, I appreciate all the information as I’m eager to learn. I think I had asked Adam a while back about starting in the bosal vs snFfle so I was happy to hear his report on that.

[Fillabeana]

I do get the comment about it not releasing well as I did start to notice that the more I paid attention.

Yeah, I made mention of the bitless bridle not because it looked like Mac was a hot mess- in fact in the photos his expression is great- but because the signals it sends get confusing, especially since you are wanting to introduce a bosal.

And I LOVE your kitties!

[aktill]

[QUOTE=monstrpony;7103663]
First, he’s hardly introducing that horse to the bosal, lol.[/QUOTE]

For sure, I think I may not have been clear in speaking of that vid. I merely meant that if a two-rein horse is getting out of balance because of the mechanics of the request, then a less educated horse isn’t likely going to be able to find where center is in the first place.

@monstrpony;7103663

Second, in that video, Buck IS demonstrating to a bunch of riders who are still in the snaffle. He’s demonstrating what is a fairly elementary movement (but a critical one!) to people who are not yet able to see a more subtle set of aids. He’s demonstrating what he would want them to be doing, in their snaffles.

I think that’s the disconnect. The demos are being done with an educated horse that’s responding IN SPITE of some of the mechanics, and then the rest of us try to replicate that with horses where we’re both learning AND teaching our horses.

So by that logic I’m being a little unfair in being critical, but it does still stand to reason that it’s planting a mental seed that might not be one you want to grow very far.

@monstrpony;7103663

Beyond that, just between you and me (and COTH), there ARE times when I see Buck two-handing with a bridle bit, and it makes me cringe a little. Don’t get me wrong, I’m an ardent follower of Buck, but I sometimes grit my teeth and play a little tape that says something about wiggle room in the biomechanics and do as I say, not as I do. But he is often in the situation of demonstrating to a less educated audience and sometimes, the bridle bit was the wrong choice for that day. And I have seen him put his bridle horse back in a snaffle if he needed to for the purpose of the class.

There are a good number of people that see nothing wrong with two-handing a bridle bit. Taken to it’s furthest extent, it’s the mindset that led to the curb cheeked snaffle.

I just personally don’t want to learn habits that will force my horse to do something IN SPITE of what I’m doing, and thought I’d share that with like minded folks who like digging into such things (good discussion BTW all!).

[Fillabeana]

I’d meant to watch that video before the clinic I’m riding in with Martin in a few weeks, so I’ll keep my eyes open for what you’re describing.

I was watching Martin Black’s A-pen video with my helper, waiting for Mr. Fillabeana to come in for dinner. I was paying attention to how Martin keeps his horses out of the cow’s flight zone bubble- cows are REALLY hard to control if you stay in the flight zone. You can’t stop them. You can turn them, but since you’re in the flight zone, they turn and go faster than they were going in the first place.

Anyway, that’s where my attention was, when my helper Oooohed, and said to me, ‘did you see how he set his horse up for that turn?’
Uh, no, I missed that entirely…and seeing it, and how he sets his green horses up but doesn’t have to with his more experienced horses…wow, that REALLY helped with my ability to control cattle, and get the horse in the right position to control the cattle. Calmed my horses down a bunch, too.

It also makes more sense when I am working one of my border collies- how they are so much easier to control when the dog is at the OUTSIDE of the flight zone bubble, and not running in to bite them all the time. My helper taught me to let the cows teach the dog to stay OUT at the very EDGE of the flight zone, and wow does that make a difference. The dog’s body will be perpendicular (well, sort of, it’s a circle…) to the edge of the flight zone, and that’s what Martin was doing with his horse- setting up a leg yield so the horse could turn 90 degrees, from a stopped cow (when done right), with his weight already planted on his outside hind/strike off leg for the correct lead.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7103933]
Dr. Deb speaks rather poorly of these; the crossunder creates leverage that doesn’t release like a regular rein should (even like a curb rein does), and the way the reins cross underneath can confuse a horse as far as where to ‘go’ to release the pull.[/QUOTE]

It’s actually a good tie-in here after our discussion on the mechanics of a bosal, since a crossunder is exactly like a bosal used one handed. The release, which is frequently criticized, is actually the least of the concerns.

Cross under bridles exert pressure on the off-side jaw AND the near side ring. The off-side jaw pressure (the so-called “whole head hug”) encourages the horse to “counter-twirl” the poll at the same time as the near side rein is asking for the exact opposite thing. This encourages the horse to lock the poll. Ergo, the horses that figure this all out learn to respond in spite of the bridle’s mechanics.

A sidepull eliminates the “counter twirl”.

@Fillabeana;7103933

Now, she’s all for a sidepull. If that’s what’s there, fantastic. A sidepull isn’t going to confuse things when you go to a snaffle bit or a bosal.

A sidepull is another in the lateral-only tool bag, and for snaffle riders who think that their horses are light, a good way to check that that’s the case. A sidepull is like a snaffle without the bite, so once a horse gets used to one, it somewhat evens the score a bit. It’s a finesse tool as well, and one that I believe is a nice compliment to a bosal for horses that shouldn’t really have a bit in their mouths yet (errupting caps etc) but are struggling with the lateral cues.