Bosal measurements & any advice?

Remembering Aktill’s comments about Mike Bridges as being a good resource for vaquero stuff, I’ve rented a couple of his videos, the most recent being “Understanding the Hackamore.” I will give his videos a thumbs-up for their thoroughness - that man has a lot of information to share, including the hows and whys of different types of hackamores and the progression through using them. Who knew there were so many and so many different mecates?! Wow!!! He shows a large collection of bosals and mecates and explains how he progresses through each one, then he takes a horse new to the hackamore and shows how he introduces it with groundwork first and then under saddle exercises.

So I went to Mike’s website and he has a link to Terry Borton as a maker of bosals (anyone know anything about his work?). I contacted him and he was very helpful in giving me directions on how to measure for a bosal. I knew my horse had a big head, but the measurement I came up with seems to be pretty far out of the standard size range…I came up with 13-1/8"! Looks like I’ll be needing one custom made for his big head!!

I found someone local to me who can help teach me about the hackamore and how to use it and how to progress and the ins and outs of using it - lots of learning coming my way!

Any advice for starting out on the bosal from your personal experiences? I don’t expect this to be a linear progression and imagine I’ll go back to the snaffle quite often.

Mac has a handsome big head, and likely some draft ancestry, but his head doesn’t look ‘custom made extra large bosal’ size to me. "Larger horse’ bosal, sure, but I don’t think it’s so big he’ll need a custom bosal.

However, my advice is this. (Assuming you’d like to do more Buck clinics, and you’d rather not have Buck hand you your a$$ on a plate about the bosal. Which he does. Sometimes he’s nice about it, even.)
1)Get Mac really soft on a halter, in your groundwork and soft all the time, to where you wouldn’t have to close your hand on the lead rope, to where it ‘weighs nothing at all’.

2)Have the ability to get Mac on a feel when you ride, and stay there. Not necessarily holding a soft feel all the time, though you’ll need to be able to do that, too, at three gaits and the varied transitions between them. You’d just give him breaks between holding himself collected/bridled up on a soft feel like that.

In the meantime, keep a lookout for good gear makers, and a good bosal. There should be some by January at the Red Bluff Bull Sale. You can also look around for someone who could help you fit a bosal, like Bryan Neubert if you were to go to one of his clinics, or Gwyn Turnbull Weaver.

The first bosal I found that I really liked was 1/2" rather than the usual 5/8" or 3/4" that most people suggest you start in. But it was beautifully made, it was made with lots of strands so it wouldn’t rub my TB’s sensitive skin, and it was small/standard size. (Right between ‘cob’ and ‘horse’, just what I was looking for.) So I bought it. Then I asked Buck if I should use it on my horse first, since it was such a perfect fit. The answer was ‘only if you’re Ray Hunt’. Ray Hunt I ain’t, so I had the maker braid me a 5/8" bosal, same size, same smooth bars. It’s great, it fits well, and I can use it a little bit here and there, mostly if we’re just moving cows.

But…
there are a lot of things (holding collection/soft feel, lateral work, fast cow work, etc) that I ought not attempt in a bosal until I’ve got it working well in the snaffle.
Now, there are plenty of people getting by JUST FINE with riding in a bosal. Trail riding, moving cows, whatever. But if you need more advancement in your horsemanship in the snaffle, it will be obvious to Buck in a clinic, and he will do you a favor and tell you either a)hey, Joe, you really need to be in a snaffle or b)Joe, you have NO BUSINESS in a bosal.

So, it’s your own business and your own choice when to ride in the bosal. And it’s OK to ride in one before you’re ‘all that’ in a snaffle. But if you want to ‘graduate’ to a bosal and then a bridle bit, you might want to hold off a bit. No pun intended! But you’ll see when you try the bosal out, that oh my I can’t get this or that done in the bosal! And then you go back to the snaffle, get it better, and it works in the bosal.

Thanks, some good things to consider!

Did you have someone help you with how to get started in the bosal? What types of exercises did you start with…same types of things as a snaffle, or something different?

While I don’t hold a candle to Mike as a horseperson, I have asked other folks who do stack up about whether anyone else follows that thorough a progression. The conclusion I came to is that you really have to be an EXTREME type A personality to go through ALL the sizes WITH multiple mecate changes as well.

I went from 5/8 straight to 3/8, and while I’d like to add a 1/2 some time to my collection for hackamore working days, there’s no way in heck I’m doing the mecate swaps as well.

Don’t know Terry, but I’ve been thrilled with my two Bill Blacks and the one Jason Jaeger.

That measurement sounds really off. That said, Mike advocates a MUCH looser fit then I’ve either been taught or come to like. His bosals are MUCH wider then I like, hence why he constantly talks on his videos about supporting the bosal to stop it from swimming.

This is on the loose side of how I like things to fit, since this was taken by Shannon Lawlor about 30 mins after I took delivery of it and hadn’t been shaped yet:
http://www.easphotography.com/Tindur/TindurBosal.jpg

The length measurement of a bosal is only valid if you pinch the widest part to 4.5" and THEN measure:
http://www.hought.com/bosal.meas.html

My biggun is a 12, and my two 3/8 ones are 11.75 and 11.5 respectively. The circumference of his nose done with a cloth tape back when he was a colt was 22" when the bosal fits (by the naso incisive notch), maybe a touch more now. Unless you ride an 18" Clyde, something sounds funny.

Always the best way. There are a lot of styles even under the vaquero umbrella, just as an FYI.

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7095026]
Any advice for starting out on the bosal from your personal experiences? I don’t expect this to be a linear progression and imagine I’ll go back to the snaffle quite often.[/QUOTE]

Never hold at any time, don’t bump unless you have to, keep a post hand and working hand, never use only one rein, don’t ever use an opening rein (Buck teaches otherwise), rein through the neck rather than around it, stop if even an ounce of tension enters your body, never block your horse but instead change his intention, and don’t get all flustered since you’ll likely screw up anyway and your horse will forgive you every time.

Whew!

Nothing wrong with a snaffle and I wouldn’t change a thing having used one extensively, but my next horse is getting started in a hack. I like snaffles for dressage lessons, but on my own time I like the responsibility and fluidity of the Spanish gear…it makes a different kind of horse. Snaffles aren’t really particularly horse friendly by comparison, and make for a MUCH less straightforward transition to the spade. I’ve learned far too many habits with the snaffle that I’m now having to unlearn in the two rein.

I found someone local to me who can help teach me about the hackamore and how to use it and how to progress and the ins and outs of using it - lots of learning coming my way!

Oh, thanks, Adam…next time maybe I’ll read the whole post for comprehension!

Pocket, there are LOTS of ways to go about this bosal thing. I’m a beginner, here, having never had a REAL bridle horse or ridden in a bosal. I’ve ridden a real bridle horse, but…uh…I myself was maybe competent just beyond the ‘take a Christmas photo with everyone standing still’ stage. What I was good at was leaving my turn to rope a calf so that I could go let my rope down to the ground crew to set the rope so I could hold the front feet of the calf.

But in any case, your job is to find out how you, and Mac (or whatever horse you are riding), feel about what is going on. I found out for myself that Buck was a mentor that I wanted to follow, because of how my horse felt about the changes we made in our first clinic. A lot of stuff that Buck was saying seemed to be bass-ackwards from what I’d been taught by dressage types- like put your inside leg back, outside leg forward, through a turn. Don’t kick the horse to go backwards. It took a lot of time at Dr. Deb’s website/forum/articles in Eclectic Horseman to figure out what was going on, and that there was no ‘reconciling’ Dressage vs Vaquero when they’re done right. But watching Buck ride in person- the peace and partnership in his horse, the peace my own horse found, were profound.

I find that there are plenty of folks who can, and do, ride at ‘higher levels’ than do I, people that can really handle a rope and the cattle…that I don’t want help from, because I see braces, resistances, horses using their bodies wrong, that are not being addressed. That these braces and ickies happen, sure, but if someone doesn’t know to address them, getting help from them risks getting me, and my horse, in trouble.

You can always ride with a person, see how you and the horse feel about it, what works, and what doesn’t.

I have a good friend who is riding with a person who is brilliant with how the horse uses itself properly (having studied with Dr. Deb more than just a little). My friend’s horse has developed a much sounder and more comfortable way of going.
But my friend also has to field, and avoid, some RFD-TV trainer/salesman ‘approved apprentice trainer’ stuff, and sort of go around it. (Oh, yeah, uh huh. And can we go work on this other thing now for my lesson?) For my friend, getting the horse to turn loose, to maintain a feel, seems to sort of be a byproduct of a good ride rather than the Most Important Thing in the lesson in the first place.

Adam, thank you for your personal view, and your comprehensive reply.
I’m interested to hear about how you are experiencing the bosal.

Snaffles aren’t really particularly horse friendly by comparison,

Maybe the difference for me, is that I’m 1)riding a previously ruined ex-racehorse that can get athletically bronc-ish in a heartbeat and 2)I’m doing for-real cattle work, like we need to get THAT cow in now and get her AI bred. We have to get it done even if it gets ugly. I need the bite of a snaffle bit, the bluff of the bosal isn’t going to shut him down in a bucking fit or reinforce that he is NOT to blow past my hand when we need to stop.
Even so, my horse was so confirmed in the C2/C3 flexion from being draw-reined and ridden with a big brace, that I pretty much didn’t bother with trying to bridle him up for two years. He had to learn to NOT lean on the bit, and it took a while.

Did you have someone help you with how to get started in the bosal? What types of exercises did you start with…same types of things as a snaffle, or something different?

My guy was trained by Ray Hunt. He knows Buck, and will go to him for help, but they didn’t know each other when they were both learning from Ray.

The one thing that Buck does teach, to use an opening rein, I remember him being adamant about that being how you have to use the bosal to get the horse to understand what your rein MEANS.
I tried riding in my bosal last summer, and was not out of control or anything, but lateral flexion, and thus vertical flexion, didn’t work. My horse’s trot ended up really crappy, so I tabled that for a while.

Trying again this summer, I could pick up an opening rein, and my horse’s nose, ribcage, inside hind leg, whole intention, followed. It felt MUCH better. Once I get my horse good with holding a soft feel in lateral work (that which I found sorely lacking at the last clinic), I’ll go back to the bosal as long as I’m not doing fast cattle work.

Don’t know Terry, but I’ve been thrilled with my two Bill Blacks and the one Jason Jaeger.

Thanks for the reminders - I’ll contact them as well.

The length measurement of a bosal is only valid if you pinch the widest part to 4.5" and THEN measure

Terry’s measurement technique called for the widest part to be 6", which I would think would make the length actually shorter (for the way he had me do it - use flexible wire thing, fashion it into the shape of a bosal, mark where the hangers would go at 6" wide, measure 4 to 4-1/2" below the chin for the space between the chin and the heel knot, then measure from the center of the nosebutton to the 4" mark below the chin and that’s where I got my 13-1/8").

My biggun is a 12, and my two 3/8 ones are 11.75 and 11.5 respectively. The circumference of his nose done with a cloth tape back when he was a colt was 22" when the bosal fits (by the naso incisive notch), maybe a touch more now. Unless you ride an 18" Clyde, something sounds funny.

The circumference of Mac’s nose at the biggest part is a little over 24". I do suspect he’s part draft . . . especially in the head! :lol:

Nothing wrong with a snaffle and I wouldn’t change a thing having used one extensively, but my next horse is getting started in a hack. I like snaffles for dressage lessons, but on my own time I like the responsibility and fluidity of the Spanish gear…it makes a different kind of horse. Snaffles aren’t really particularly horse friendly by comparison, and make for a MUCH less straightforward transition to the spade. I’ve learned far too many habits with the snaffle that I’m now having to unlearn in the two rein.

Next time around would you skip the snaffle altogether?

But in any case, your job is to find out how you, and Mac (or whatever horse you are riding), feel about what is going on. I found out for myself that Buck was a mentor that I wanted to follow, because of how my horse felt about the changes we made in our first clinic. A lot of stuff that Buck was saying seemed to be bass-ackwards from what I’d been taught by dressage types- like put your inside leg back, outside leg forward, through a turn. Don’t kick the horse to go backwards. It took a lot of time at Dr. Deb’s website/forum/articles in Eclectic Horseman to figure out what was going on, and that there was no ‘reconciling’ Dressage vs Vaquero when they’re done right. But watching Buck ride in person- the peace and partnership in his horse, the peace my own horse found, were profound.

I did Buck’s clinic in the spring and have done clinics with a couple other people, none of whom gave me a feeling that I wanted to ride or handle a horse any way that they did. When watching Buck, I was really inspired to get my horse light and soft and have the communication between us be subtle. It moved me so much that I feel like I’m a Buck follower and probably drive other people crazy talking about how much the experience changed how I work with my horse. And heck, I never even talked to Buck personally! I guess the hard part is how to continue with that sort of training since, obviously, there’s only one of him and I can’t travel all over the country going to his clinics, as much as I’d love to. I’m trying to see if I can ride in the Bryan Neubert clinic but the organizer has not been very responsive. I may try to go up to his ranch for one of the “at-ranch” clinics he does. I did find someone local who can help me, but her methods are a bit different (not bad different, just not entirely the same as Buck, but she does go for softness and feel and connection with the horse’s brain).

Could you expand on the bolded comment above?

The one thing that Buck does teach, to use an opening rein, I remember him being adamant about that being how you have to use the bosal to get the horse to understand what your rein MEANS.

And if you don’t use an opening rein, then what? Why the debate about yes or no in that regard? And is it different if you start in the hackamore and then go to the snaffle vs. the other way around?

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7095346]
I’m interested to hear about how you are experiencing the bosal.[/QUOTE]

I love the gear. Whether I’m riding out, arena riding, or working cattle when I get the chance, it’s my choice 95% of the time. Going to be riding with Martin Black at a feed lot in AB this fall when he’s up this way, and I’m bringing both bosals and leaving the snaffle at home (how my horse feels that day will decide 5/8 vs 3/8).

If you don’t believe that you can get that done in a bosal, then I wouldn’t try. You need to commit 100% to the tack, and so if you don’t believe I will work you’ll probably be right.

Most people have seen horses run through severe correction bits, so I don’t buy the bit about a bosal being a “bluff”. By that definition, anything is. I’ve seen some harsh bosals that will break a horse’s nose if used harshly.

By and large a hackamore demands more from the rider than a snaffle does in terms of leaving a safety factor, to be sure. At the same time, wild cattle in old CA were MUCH wilder than any out there on just about any ranch today, and those were the guys that developed this gear.

Buck also says he has no problem using two hands on the bridle reins if he needs to, and teaches that. I’ve read old stories of young guys getting beaten off their horses for doing that to the horses they were given to ride.

There isn’t only one way to use this tack, or one teacher doing so. I wish I’d never been taught to use an opening rein, since it makes the transition to bridle reins and romal SO much harder IMO.

The guy I was watching a few weeks ago (Bruce Sandifer) flat out said that if you felt the need to lead a horse like that, get off his d^!m back and do it from there. He then showed (with a largely unschooled horse) how you could even double a horse without moving your hands from the bridle-rein position of above the horn.

His point was that if you want to make a spade bit horse, why learn habits you’ll have to unlearn later? The hackamore works just fine ridden like a bridle, with maybe a little two-handed work at first to start things out. The hands shouldn’t be wide and leading even then though, but up over the horn like bridle reins. Bruce had nothing at all positive to say about half-breed bits though…he’s a spade bit man.

Just some thoughts, anyway.

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7095785]

Terry’s measurement technique called for the widest part to be 6", which I would think would make the length actually shorter.[/QUOTE]

That would make the bosal even larger if the length was done with a wider reference width.

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7095785]
The circumference of Mac’s nose at the biggest part is a little over 24". I do suspect he’s part draft . . . especially in the head! :lol:[/QUOTE]

So maybe an 11.5" or 12" would be my guess, but not 13"+

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7095785]
Next time around would you skip the snaffle altogether?[/QUOTE]

No, but I’d only introduce it after starting in a sidepull and going to a 5/8". I like to be able to take proper dressage lessons, and using bilingual gear helps.

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7095791]
And if you don’t use an opening rein, then what? [/QUOTE]

Hand (or hands) up, not out. Similar concept to PK’s dressage work, in that regard. With the low-set hanger, it’s how the gear was designed to work.

Because not even Buck seems to be able to use the opening rein without his horse’s nose coming off plumb:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMUWZr61dhQ
An opening rein takes your hand away from your midline, and almost can’t help pull his nose out from under his spine.

If reins are used like that in the bridle and that bridle bit is a spade, it will tip the spoon into the side of the tooth arcade or at least encourage the horse to tilt laterally. Vids like that make some guys mental as a result, and I can see why. Buck even warns against encouraging this sort of tilt from plumb, but the vid shows him doing it in the two-rein (maybe with a half-breed?).

I respect Buck as a horseman, but I’ve seen other guys get just as much softness while teaching mechanics that don’t compromise the gear quite so much. It’s nothing you can’t demonstrate yourself by hanging reins off a bridle bit on a hook.

No, it’s the mechanics of the bosal that matter.

Because not even Buck seems to be able to use the opening rein without his horse’s nose coming off plumb:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMUWZr61dhQ
An opening rein takes your hand away from your midline, and almost can’t help pull his nose out from under his spine.

Adam, thanks for the video - I was actually going to ask if you had any video examples of Buck in the bosal with an opening rein vs. someone else in the bosal without an opening rein.

Speaking about twisting the horse’s nose with the bosal, I’ve actually wondered about that with working with a rope halter. Since the rope is under the chin, if you’re working the horse around you, it seems like it would be mechanically/physically impossible to not get a head tilt vs. the head vertical when turning it to the side. I’ve used a lunging cavesson with the ring on the nose for that reason and it seems to give good results. Any thoughts on that?

Oh, and I’m very excited to report that I AM going to ride in the Bryan Neubert clinic soon. I’ve asked the coordinator to mention to him that I’m interested in learning about fitting a bosal so I’m hopeful he can help point me in the right direction, size-wise.

SQUEEEEE!!! Happy dance!

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7098902]
Speaking about twisting the horse’s nose with the bosal, I’ve actually wondered about that with working with a rope halter. Since the rope is under the chin, if you’re working the horse around you, it seems like it would be mechanically/physically impossible to not get a head tilt vs. the head vertical when turning it to the side. I’ve used a lunging cavesson with the ring on the nose for that reason and it seems to give good results. Any thoughts on that?[/QUOTE]

Yes…rope halters aren’t for riding (or lunging) for exactly this reason. For a first ride when you’re not going to do anything, fine, but after that get a sidepull or a riding cavession like you describe.

The people who call a rope halter a “natural hackamore” are deluding themselves.

Given that he’s an amazing braider himself, I think you’ll get some great advice!

If your horse is genuinely soft in the snaffle, you should not be pulling his head out of alignment when you use an opening rein with a bosal. You are not supposed to be pulling; your horse is supposed to be following your feel.

Many of us get in the habit of pulling back on a snaffle, when what we mean is to get the horse bending laterally. And we expect to feel the horse more on the end of the rein when we do it, because the habit is that we have to physically move the horse’s head and neck. IF your horse is genuinely following your feel, as you’ve taught by constantly thinking of releasing to small, correct responses, you should not be pulling anything. Following feel, constantly seeking the release, is what makes it possible to open your hand with a bosal and bend the horse, not tip the horse’s head. If he can’t do this pretty reliably, he isn’t ready to be in a bosal. If you have to pull his head around to get bend, then you need to go back to the snaffle and re-train yourself to ride with softness and feel.

If your horse is genuinely soft in the snaffle, you should not be pulling his head out of alignment when you use an opening rein with a bosal. You are not supposed to be pulling; your horse is supposed to be following your feel.

Beautifully put.

I noticed that Martin Black, in his Introduction to the A-Pen DVD, is using an opening rein on both his snaffle bit horses and his bosal horses. He is leg-yielding, getting the horse to step under behind, before the horse makes the turn after the cow.
The leg yield anchors the horse’s weight on the outside hind, from which he will strike off into canter/gallop after the cow.
My ‘helper’ showed me this, noticing also that Martin did not have to set his two-rein horse up for the turns on cattle to get them to turn on the outside hind.

So, I went back and watched some Bruce Sandifer video, since Bruce advocates never using an opening rein at all. I noticed that his horse, while it operates beautifully on a feel, and is NEVER pulled around, does not step under laterally with his hind feet very well. Very big difference between Mr. Sandifer’s horse behind (in any maneuver, walking on a circle or making any sort of turn) and Buck’s horses behind, Martin’s horses behind, and Bryan Neubert’s horses behind. Buck’s, Martin’s, and Bryan’s horses (green colts to two-rein or bridle horses) were very fluid stepping under behind, unlike Mr. Sandifer’s two-rein horse.

As far as having an opinion, sure, go have one. Bryan Neubert talks about ‘two hands on a bridle bit’ in one spot on my dvd, saying that Bill Dorrance and Bill Van Norman both told him, ‘don’t let someone else tell you that you can’t do that, if you need to get that lateral move working again then use two bridle reins.’
After all, ‘proper’ dressage in a double bridle (while not a spade) makes use of two reins on the bridle bit. When the horse is REALLY well trained, some of the ‘high school’ aficionados will go to one hand on the curb rein.

Bending a horse’s head around need not be ‘deep’ to get the horse to release laterally at the poll. Dr. Deb speaks about this, and says that there is no reason to get the horse to bend all the way around laterally. But Bill Dorrance was pretty adamant about it. I think that the exercise is not JUST about giving laterally at the poll, to release a physical brace, but an exercise in asking the horse to give over, to turn loose mentally, in a way that purposely leaves him off balance (with his spine out of alignment, so to speak, and one eye pretty much ‘blind’). You hear about Martin Black, Tom Curtin, etc. laying a horse down to get the horse to turn loose. You also hear that they almost never have to do that anymore…and I think it is because they are getting the horse turning loose in deep ways without laying the horse down…like getting the horse giving softly, happily, in a non-damaging posture, with his nose coming all the way around to the stirrup, and getting his face petted.

But anyway, I knew I was not quite so far in over my head in the bosal when I picked my hand up and out in a big opening rein gesture, and my horse followed not just with his nose, but with his ribcage, with his weight, and with his hind leg stepping under, all on a feel.

I have a problem with the idea of paying to be instructed in ‘biomechanics’ of Californio Horsemanship when I see photos of a horse turning left with all his weight dumped on his left side…
http://www.terryborton.com/My_Homepage_Files/IMG_102.JPG
and turning a cow not just late (as in not mirroring the cow, but playing catch-up) but on the wrong lead as well because the horse has not likely been set up for the turn:
http://www.terryborton.com/My_Homepage_Files/IMG_101.jpg

This has nothing to do with the quality of rawhide braiding…but I’m not interested in learning ‘how to use the hackamore’ from him.

As far as bending deep, stepping under behind, and following a feel with a lead rope, then an opening rein, Bill Dorrance is quite firm in describing these as basic, fundamental moves in his 'True Horsemanship Through Feel" book. In his book, you teach that horse to soften (as Monstrpony describes above) even before you ask for the hind end to step under laterally.
That move, that lateral step-under, is the only way the horse can make posturally sound/athletic turns without damaging his body, whether it’s a 20 meter circle or a rollback.
Once you’re in the two-rein or bridle, you should be able to get that lateral softness/step under with a small move right near the saddle horn. But if that horse isn’t stepping deep, you need to go get that working before you go on to anything else.
In fact, in the roping class, Buck had those of us in snaffle bits using one hand on the reins, one hand on the rope coils, asking our horses to step over like that, to hold a soft feel, etc. so it isn’t like Buck, Bill Dorrance, Martin Black, Bryan Neubert are trying to teach that you are always supposed to use a big opening rein. Just that the move is basic to biomechanical soundness, and you need to do what you need to do to get it working, any time you lose it.

When you go from the snaffle to the bosal, it simply feels different to the horse. It’s more that just getting out of the horse’s mouth. You have to explain to the horse that “this thing here is equivalent to that thing that we did in the snaffle”. Because what the horse feels from the rein is so different in the bosal, compared to the snaffle, the opening hand helps with that little explanation. It’s not that you will always ride that way in a bosal.

That’s why getting stuff solid in the snaffle is important–for the rider, as much as the horse. If you shortcut to the bosal just because you want to get there, and haven’t taught yourself how to help the horse through the transision … well, the horse will quickly tell you that you’ve made a boo-boo (and you risk letting your horse discover how much more powerless you are in the bosal). I can easily see why someone who has made that transition a lot, who really understands riding with feel, could start a horse in a bosal. But anyone who has not built that foundation in themself will benefit from working in the snaffle first (particularly people transitioning from more positive contact disciplines–letting go can be hard to do!).

Amen, Monstr. ^^

And I think one of the strengths of the bosal is that it can be used to give signals that are LIKE the snaffle does (lateral, opening rein) and LIKE the bridle bit will be (neck reining).

If I’m going to take riding instruction in any style/equipment of riding, I want to know how to get the horse on a feel, releasing a brace laterally at the poll, stepping laterally underneath himself, and ultimately collecting himself.
What I saw Mr. Sandifer do in the DVD I have, was show a horse on a feel, releasing his poll laterally, and the horse was truly front-end-up collected. But the base where the horse needs to be really smooth stepping under laterally behind was just not there, and not addressed at all.

Loving this discussion, thank you for the different viewpoints!!!

I have peeked over at Dr. Deb’s website and I see her talk about “head twirling” but I haven’t actually found an article where she discusses WHAT it is in depth and how to achieve it. Anybody know where I can find it? I have a vague idea of what it is but would like further explanation.

[QUOTE=Pocket Pony;7103324]
Loving this discussion, thank you for the different viewpoints!!!

I have peeked over at Dr. Deb’s website and I see her talk about “head twirling” but I haven’t actually found an article where she discusses WHAT it is in depth and how to achieve it. Anybody know where I can find it? I have a vague idea of what it is but would like further explanation.[/QUOTE]

This should do it:
http://equinestudies.org/true_collection_2008/true_collection_2008_pdf1.pdf

She has more detail in her Inner Horseman archives, but you have to buy those.

[QUOTE=monstrpony;7102078]
If your horse is genuinely soft in the snaffle, you should not be pulling his head out of alignment when you use an opening rein with a bosal. You are not supposed to be pulling; your horse is supposed to be following your feel.[/QUOTE]

Sure, fine, but what’s the opening rein as used here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMUWZr61dhQ
…actually saying? And if you watch Buck’s horse, especially in the first few circles, how often does his head stay plumb under his poll? This is a two rein horse too, remember.

If I open the inside rein like that, I remove the channel of the rein that defines the extent to which the neck should bend. If he only rates off the outside rein alone, all might be well, but Buck is moving his inside hand much further than his outside hand. If that was a bosal, and remembering that the reins meet under the chin, the heel knot HAS to move further to the inside by simple Pythagorean math. Ergo, the nose tips out of vertical to the inside of the circle to stay within the branches of the bosal…which Buck’s horse is doing.

This is very easy to see if you hang a bosal by the hanger on a tack cleaning hook. If I open my left rein fully like Buck does in that vid and only cross the crest slightly with my right, the bosal turns RIGHT, not left, and tilts slightly so the heel knot tips left.

OTOH, if you move both hands slightly right keeping them parallel to the plane of the bosal, the bosal pivots LEFT without tipping. Try it.

Bridle bits do the same, unsurprisingly, but if there’s a 4" spoon to contend with the risk is touching the teeth with the spoon.

The above is why teaching a horse to “neck rein” where he’s supposed to look left why both reins move left is asking him to ignore the bit movement. That’s actually naturally going to ask him to look RIGHT. It’s why lots of “neck reiners” merrily counterbend every turn they ever make.

So I still don’t see the benefit of an opening rein used as such.

Atkill, I agree with what you say, with two "but"s–

First, he’s hardly introducing that horse to the bosal, lol.

Second, in that video, Buck IS demonstrating to a bunch of riders who are still in the snaffle. He’s demonstrating what is a fairly elementary movement (but a critical one!) to people who are not yet able to see a more subtle set of aids. He’s demonstrating what he would want them to be doing, in their snaffles.

Beyond that, just between you and me (and COTH), there ARE times when I see Buck two-handing with a bridle bit, and it makes me cringe a little. Don’t get me wrong, I’m an ardent follower of Buck, but I sometimes grit my teeth and play a little tape that says something about wiggle room in the biomechanics and do as I say, not as I do. But he is often in the situation of demonstrating to a less educated audience and sometimes, the bridle bit was the wrong choice for that day. And I have seen him put his bridle horse back in a snaffle if he needed to for the purpose of the class.