I’m with DW. My endurance horse had a “whoosh” and was never troubled by it. Do a title search here for “murmur” and you can see what COTHers have to say about it. I’ve heard that as many as 1/3 of endurance horses have heart murmurs of varying degrees. And they come and go so the ppe may certainly have missed it.
I’m not quite sure how it differs from humans to horses, but I have mitral valve prolapse with regurgitation. In humans, mitral valve prolapse is pretty common…it’s the regurgitation that can cause problems. I’m on a beta blocker and my cardiologist says that’s all I need to do for now. I do eat well, and get a decent amount of exercise though, just to decrease the chances of anything getting worse.
Again, I’m not saying that I know anything about how this is in horses, but I do know that if it’s mild regurgitation for humans that it’s very manageable. Maybe it’s like that for horses too?
A murmur is one thing. Actually looking at the valve is much better. A little bit of thickening and only a little bit of leaking? I’d buy that horse.
[QUOTE=deltawave;7133592]
A murmur is one thing. Actually looking at the valve is much better. A little bit of thickening and only a little bit of leaking? I’d buy that horse.[/QUOTE]
You would pay more than 20k for it as a yearling?
[QUOTE=deltawave;7133592]
A murmur is one thing. Actually looking at the valve is much better. A little bit of thickening and only a little bit of leaking? I’d buy that horse.[/QUOTE]
Because you’re a cardiologist. The average person looking to buy a horse for competition would be afraid of something like that. Right or wrong, images of Hickstead in his last hour would be running through my mind.
OK, I’ll clarify. If the horse was otherwise precisely what I wanted and the price was fair to me, that echo would not put me off. I would not pay 20K for any untrained horse, myself, but that’s not the question. 
Yes, of course I feel like my comfort level is different than most people on this topic. Not much I can do about that. It would take 3 or 4 basic questions from a buyer to a vet to completely eliminate any possible link with this animal’s findings and what happened to Hickstead, who ruptured an aorta. Nothing to do with the mitral valve at all, or even the heart. It is not a rare cause of death in mature stallions.
A heart problem is not a vice.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7133895]
A heart problem is not a vice.[/QUOTE]
It is a congenital defect.
And it will interfere with the purpose intended by the OP (resale project).
And I stand by my opinion that the OP should be reimbursed fully by the breeder. (or be allowed to decide if s/he wants to buy the horse at a reduced priced with the defect disclosed or exchange for another of similar quality.)
I’m not sure I’d even call it a defect. Would want to check the horse again in 6 months or a year. A little thickening of a valve is not a “defect” in my mind, nor is a little leaking.
I don’t think it is realistic to expect every murmur to show up on a routine prepurchase exam. I know how hard it is to hear a subtle murmur on an active infant or toddler, and imagine it is even harder on a yearling. So much important, severe, congenital heart disease was missed in infants that a pulse oximetry screening, followed by echocardiogram in those who fail the first part of the screening, is now standard for newborn babies in many states.
The prepurchase exam increases your chances of getting a healthy horse but certainly doesn’t pick up every problem.
[QUOTE=deltawave;7133972]
I’m not sure I’d even call it a defect. Would want to check the horse again in 6 months or a year. A little thickening of a valve is not a “defect” in my mind, nor is a little leaking.[/QUOTE]
Maybe I’m coming at this from a different angle since I worked in pediatric cardiac surgery for so many years… I don’t have an MD behind my name like you do. But in an unworked weanling, I’d find it concerning enough to pass on the horse. Only because MR sometimes gets worse with time in kiddos. I would hate to risk spending all those years and dollars bringing a horse along only to have the horse become symptomatic in their prime. Medical management and interventions that have because commonplace for adults aren’t even an option in the equine population.
[QUOTE=deltawave;7133972]
I’m not sure I’d even call it a defect. Would want to check the horse again in 6 months or a year. A little thickening of a valve is not a “defect” in my mind, nor is a little leaking.[/QUOTE]
So… you would wait and see how it evolves? If it gets worse in 6 months? You’d be stuck with it and be happy to have spend that much money on a horse with a known congenital defect?
Given the choice between a ‘healthy’ one and the one with the hearth problem of the same quality, NO ONE would buy the one with the problem. No one would pay 20+K for that. C’mon!!!
I’m really not blaming anyone in this story. I just don’t find it is realistic to say to the buyer 'hey too bad so sad be glad and get the so called “great deal”…
We are not talking about a 2k old horse or a backyard breeder selling to an average ammy with no ambitions here. We are talking about a yearling at 20K.
The ‘defect’ wasn’t found years later either but 1 month after the purchase.
If the first vet had found that problem in the PPE, I don’t think the OP would have bought the horse, or at least, not at that price.
The OP needs to consult with a lawyer.
I agree with the ‘stuff happens’ not ‘somebody goofed’ interpretation. If I were so blessed as to have enough $ to blow $20K on a horse, I certainly would not get one that young, but that is irrelevant, just puts things into perspective, that you gambled a lot of money on a very young animal, despite the likelihood that the critter could either turn out to be untrainable, become injured in training or whatever and still not reach its anticipated potential for a myriad of reasons unrelated to its heart.
It is possible that the horse may turn out to be just fine and dandy, despite the heart issue, but you will not know until it is old enough to be wearing leather. If I were in your shoes, I would a)resolve to buy an already ‘made’ older horse in future because there.are.no,guarantees.with.horses, doubly so youngsters! and b) feed the youngster optimally, turn out and allow to grow up and see what you have in terms of athletic ability when the youngster is 3 or 4.
FWIW, many horses have cardiovascular issues, many are not diagnosed on PPEs. Like people, horses can outgrow a murmur, and murmurs can be difficult to detect hence the disagreement with the vets.
I disagree that the breeder needs to reimburse the OP. Biology/physiology happens, which makes breeding a challenge and why breeders offer a Live Foal Guarantee, not a Physiologically/Anatomically Superlative Specimen Guarantee. That said, OP should be aware that she could easily trade an asymptomatic horse for a horse with another issue that may turn up later. All breeders know that one never knows how the youngster will turn out. This is exactly why horses become more expensive as they age and undergo training. Their future becomes more certain the closer they get to that future and display an aptitude (or not) for it. If the OP or people here don’t want any risk, unfortunately they have to be prepared to shell out the money for a trained 4 year old who passes vet check with flying colors. Reality is that they aren’t cheap, which is why people roll the dice with the younger horses. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But you can’t blame the breeder for a horse you decided to buy.
WOW! Thank you everyone for your input.
I woulder NEVER buy a horse that has a defect, especially a heart issue. Yes, maybe if the price reflected it, but a $20k+ weanling - no. I agree it is a lot for a youngster, however, the horse has the bloodlines, movement and confirmation and was very highly scored in the foal assessment tour. Maybe it was silly of me paying that for a foal, but realistically I would never be able to afford a horse like it when it was say 3 years old.
I am not blaming anyone in this scenario either, I am trying to gage how to approach it and what to do. The horse is amazing, but waiting 12 months and then maybe realize it is deteriorating… Yes, the horse can get injured in the paddock or what not and these are the risks you take. But I was not expecting to get told a month after purchasing that my horse has a congenital heart condition.
I called my insurance company and sent them the report from the cardiologist to see if they would still cover the horse for loss of use when past 2 years old, as then I would keep it and hope for the best. Insurance said they do not touch horses with such issues.
I appreaciate all the different opinions and peoples experience. I have offered the breeder they can have the horse back for a discounted price as I am not sure if the Australian laws would cover me in this case. Maybe something to look into.
What is the cardiologist’s opinion as to the severity of this so-called “congenital defect” and the horse’s prognosis?
Biology/physiology happens, which makes breeding a challenge and why breeders offer a Live Foal Guarantee, not a Physiologically/Anatomically Superlative Specimen Guarantee.
:yes: :yes: :yes:
[QUOTE=J-Lu;7134311]
I disagree that the breeder needs to reimburse the OP. Biology/physiology happens, which makes breeding a challenge and why breeders offer a Live Foal Guarantee, not a Physiologically/Anatomically Superlative Specimen Guarantee.[/QUOTE]
How is that relevant to the OP’s problem?
The OP did not bought a breeding, she bought a horse from a breeder.
Actually, the rest of your post isn’t much relevant either.
Of course you always take a gamble when you buy a horse but there are laws to protect buyers for things like that. And we are not talking about the horse being injured or developping something overtime. This is somethin that was found pretty easily and quickly after the purchase and that is congenital.
The OP’s breeder doesn’t have stock of similar quality. Reimbursing is the only possible option. The breeder will then be able to easily sell that weanling with the problem disclosed since a lot here seem to think it is no big deal!
[QUOTE=alibi_18;7133918]
It is a congenital defect.
And it will interfere with the purpose intended by the OP (resale project).
And I stand by my opinion that the OP should be reimbursed fully by the breeder. (or be allowed to decide if s/he wants to buy the horse at a reduced priced with the defect disclosed or exchange for another of similar quality.)[/QUOTE]
Actually, there is nothing in the linked lawyer’s commentary that contradicts those that say “horse was vetted, you are sadly sol”. Had the breeder advertised the horse as being “definite sport horse” then maybe. Breeder likely advertised as “sport horse prospect” which is still not untrue. The lawyer’s comments pertain to false representations, none of which were (as far as we know) made by the breeder.
If there is any legal fault here it would lie with the PPE vet. However, that may be difficult (and likely expensive) to prove. Buyer would have to get experts to testify that the defect would have been obvious to any competent vet examining the horse. Vet would get other experts to (possibly) say, sometimes the sound is not apparent. It would become a battle of the experts. Might still be worth it depending on the value of the animal. In evaluationg that OP should take into conserideration the added cost of raising foal to useful age.
Resale will be harder, insurance would likely be an uphill battle. Actual usefulness of the animal may not really be affected though. I defer to the medical people on that one. Jill Henselwood’s Olympic partner Special Ed stayed with her because he failed a PPE due to a heart murmer.
If the resale, insurance and uncertaintly are simply unacceptable to you OP I think you do a swap or see if breeder will let you swap for next year’s foal (assuming same bloodlines). Who knows, by next year murmer might not be detectable.
Tough situation, for sure.
[QUOTE=deltawave;7134812]
What is the cardiologist’s opinion as to the severity of this so-called “congenital defect” and the horse’s prognosis?[/QUOTE]
Somewhere in her first post I think it said the cardiologist was “concerned” because the horse was so young, though that isn’t very specific.
I feel for the op, and I’m sure she’s not as calm as her posts appear. This is also an interesting discussion in some respects. I posted earlier about my horse whose murmur and a-fib were discovered at 16; clearly had been there a while, horse was fit, sound and healthy otherwise. Cardiologist told me he was fine to continue his dressage work, but had he been a jumper, the advice would have been to back off a ways. So based on my vast experience of ONE, I might well buy an older, working horse if it had this problem but was performing at the level I wanted. However, to buy one that young, who seems fine ex the “issue” but is not in any work program, that I hoped to train campaign and possibly resell, no, I wouldn’t go there.
If I would be looking to blame anyone (and I don’t know that I would) I might be looking at my vet who did the PPE and missed the murmur despite listening to the heart. I would not be looking at the breeder for failing to discover a latent condition that was missed on the PPE.
