Bought a horse with a heart problem

[SouthernYankee]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;7134191]
Maybe I’m coming at this from a different angle since I worked in pediatric cardiac surgery for so many years… I don’t have an MD behind my name like you do. But in an unworked weanling, I’d find it concerning enough to pass on the horse. Only because MR sometimes gets worse with time in kiddos. I would hate to risk spending all those years and dollars bringing a horse along only to have the horse become symptomatic in their prime. Medical management and interventions that have because commonplace for adults aren’t even an option in the equine population.[/QUOTE]

Isn’t this what every breeder of purchaser of young prospects risks?? I have a 4 month old filly and have $$ and almost 2 years invested at this point and she might be a Rolex horse, or she might kill herself swatting a fly in the pasture… she sure has the potential to do both. That’s the risk we take with horses especially young horses.

I’m sorry for a lack of sympathy (and will take the flogging) but if you couldn’t afford to lose the $20k investment then maybe you should not have spent the money on a young horse. I do not think the breeder owes you anything and the offer to trade for another youngster is very generous. Just as I do not think the PPE vet is liable. If I was in your situation I’d be just as distraught as you. But this is the horse business. The part that just set me off is the fact that people are looking at pointing the finger at someone else and not taking responsibility for crap just sometimes happens. (And yes I have lost a very very promising prospect at 3yo to mother nature. It sucked, royally, but that was the risk I took when I bred and raised her.)

My question is if this horse had broken a leg or coliced in the first week of having it would you have felt the same way?

[Personal_Champ]

I have nothing to add to the argument that wasn’t already stated, so I won’t, but I will add something about heart murmurs.

I have a 9 y.o. mare who was PPE’d by previous owner at Cornell, and found to have a grade 2? murmur. They bought her anyway, didn’t get along with her AT ALL, and I acquired her at 7.

My vet has YET to be able to find the murmur, and not for lack of trying. She is currently in foal and due 2014 due to my medical issues this year, and it has never affected her performance, at all.

[wendy]

I believe a large percentage of actively racing TB’s have heart murmurs, and it’s never been shown to affect their performance.

[deltawave]

What is unknown (and I’ve asked a whole bunch of equine cardiologists) is what the prevalence of this sort of finding is among horses. That is, how many perfectly “normal” horses have these minor-looking abnormalities in their hearts but have never been studied. I would wager it’s a gigantic number.

[AKB]

If I were spending a huge amount on a yearling, I might not get a normal prepurchase exam as I am aware of how hard it is to pick up many defects on a routine prepurchase in the field. I might get an echocardiogram and cardiology evaluation, an ophthalmology evaluation to look at risk factors for uveitis, an X-ray of every body part including the spine. The OP chose a regular prepurchase exam. Therefore, some subtle problems might be missed.

We had a neighbor who got a routine prepurchase exam plus an ophthalmologist exam for her prospective horse. I asked why they saw an ophthalmologist after the regular part of the PPE showed no problem. She said everyone in the human family had some kind of eye problem. Sure enough, the horse had a subtle and unusual eye problem. They bought him any way and he did well for her.

Health Care practitioners can’t pick up everything. We aren’t issued magic wands when we are licensed. I don’t like that the vet is automatically blamed by some when a problem was not detected by a routine, low tech exam.

[staceyk]

I don’t have medical knowledge on this subject, but here is some advice. Don’t go legal on anyone. Bad karma.

I would take the baby to an equine facility for evaluation, and get an opinion from a specialist. You need someone with real knowledge to tell you what to expect and how “permanent” this is likely to be. I think someone will be able to evaluate the murmur and advise the OP.

Try n not to jump to scary conclusions. First, this is a baby, and babies do grow out of things. Second, almost all horses have something, and maybe this is your horse’s “thing.” I bought a healthy weanling (no heart murmur) and seven years later he has terrible feet that have made it hard to make progress in his training and I fear it will limit what we can do. I’ve had friends buy beautiful horses to lose them to colic. They fall in the field. They get lyme. None of them are perfect for long.

Let us know!

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=alibi_18;7133918]
It is a congenital defect.

And it will interfere with the purpose intended by the OP (resale project).

Read this. I know it is not from the US but I’m sure there should be something similar as there is here in Quebec, Canada.

And I stand by my opinion that the OP should be reimbursed fully by the breeder. (or be allowed to decide if s/he wants to buy the horse at a reduced priced with the defect disclosed or exchange for another of similar quality.)[/QUOTE]

There is no way to prove that the PPE vet missed anything. Presumably no murmur was present at the post foalng exam. It could have become apparent with age. While some States in the US have puppy lemon laws which would cover a puppy buyer, I know of nothing comparable for foals.

I thin the law referenced above or something similar in the US if say a horse with a neurectomy was sold as sound and the seller did not disclose the neurectomy.

[vxf111]

That article seems to discuss the Canadian version of what is the UCC/state consumer protection statutes in the US. If you look around for an article written by a lawyer who hangs out on COTH sometimes, you might find a similar very recent article discuss that very topic and addressing UCC rights/remedies in equine sale contracts.

[alibi_18]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;7135916]
There is no way to prove that the PPE vet missed anything. Presumably no murmur was present at the post foalng exam. It could have become apparent with age. While some States in the US have puppy lemon laws which would cover a puppy buyer, I know of nothing comparable for foals.

I thin the law referenced above or something similar in the US if say a horse with a neurectomy was sold as sound and the seller did not disclose the neurectomy.[/QUOTE]

Lile I said, I’m not trying to put the blame on anyone.
But a month later after the first PPE, a congenital defect was found.
So, if it is congenital, it means it was/is there, no matter if the vet missed it.

If you are aware of a Puppy lemon law, then I’m sure there is something similar for horses. Same goes for cars, houses or other goods.

Anyway, Meow-meow, I hope everything will resolved without too much drama and that you will find your next superstar!

[newhorsemommy]

My mare was approximately 15 years old when I bought her and my vet found a very pronounced heart murmur during the PPE. I pretty much would have bought her regardless of her issues because I felt sorry for her (and she didn’t cost $20K:)), but I did want to know what I was facing as far as health/soundness issues. The murmur kind of worried me for a while, but about a year later my vet checked it and could barely hear it, and for the last 2 years it has not been detectable at all.

They can come and go, so it’s entirely possible it wasn’t there during the PPE.

[Eventer13]

What was the grade of the murmur? Some murmurs, say a I/VI, can be missed even by experienced practitioners. Murmurs can also change over time, so it might be a I/IV at one visit, and a II/IV at another. Just saying that if it was a murmur that I’d only expect a cardiologist to hear, I wouldn’t blame the vet that did the PPE. I wouldn’t expect the average practitioner to have those kind of ears.

Personally, if you’re this worried about it, I’d trade the baby for something else. But I don’t think its the breeder’s or vet’s fault, just crap that goes along with horses.

[mareslave]

SAM has heartmurmer too

[QUOTE=meow_meow;7131836]
Hi guys,

Book it in to a equine cardiologist who detected my horse has mitral regurgitation associated with thickening of the mitral valve

Hope to hear peoples perspective.[/QUOTE]

years ago I did a PPE on a filly I’d waited 2 yrs to buy only to find a heart murmur. I got a crash course in benign murmurs and dangerous murmurs. I declined to purchase after finding bone issues. During the whole drama, I did learned that Olympic Gold medalist La Biosthetique Sam has a heartmurmer also, which has not stopped him from winning damn near everything with Michael Jung and from the German Federation from paying a small fortune for the horse.

It’s a very, very long road from weanling to undersaddle to Rolex. Without a heart murmur, a weanling may never even make it undersaddle or with this heart murmur, your little guy might live up to your ambitions. Try not to go down the rabbit whole of “he can’t be an UL horse cause I can’t insure him” yet - way too early for that.

Just love on him and proceed with baby school and let him surprise you.

[meow_meow]

Hi again guys,

I have had a NON HORSE weekend to get my head off this particular issue.

I am not calm at all I haven’t been sleeping since this has come about, as you could imagine! - oh the joys of horses, hey!

I am not pointing the finger at the breeder, please don’t get that impression. The issue is, this horse has been sold as a healthy horse, however, less than a month after purchase I find out it as a congential defect. I find it hard/strange that the vet, who has seen the horse a number of times NEVER has detected it and first time my vet sees her, the vet finds something.

Maybe it is the vet’s “fault” if anys. I would never (who would), pay that sort of money for a youngster with a murmur.

Cardiologist is saying AS IS right now, it may not affect her. However, due to age and not knowing which way this will go, the cardiologist is concerned (on my behalf) due to being purchased as a sports horse. Surely, the horse will be able to be in a paddock and do mild work (if it deteriorates), but this is not what the horse has been bought for.

Of course with horses you take risks. If she broke a leg then that would be it. For me (maybe because I have never been in this position before), I am concerned about the “extra” question mark above it’s head.
I do not wish to take a legal road as I feel both breeder and myself are mature people and will work something out - one way or the other.

Some photos of the horse we are discussing. Never mind the face on the owner :winkgrin:

http://s1356.photobucket.com/user/J_Christiansen/library/

[alto]

She is lovely!

I’d be inclined to keep her but request a discount from breeder - insurance is a significant factor but "loss of use"is always tricky anyway … you might request a 2nd cardiologist opinion, also the “odds” of murmur deterioration vs disappearance, and future breeding considerations.

If breeder is agreeable, you might discuss keeping horse for a year & reassessing (would want to have a written contract) - if murmur still present or worse, then perhaps breeder could offer a “replacement” at significant discount …

I don’t feel that breeder is in any way obligated to offer anything: horse was sold in good faith, horse passed the PPE (not sure why you chose a vet that had an existing relationship with the horse (& breeder)) - while in the dog world (at least in NA) health warranties are common, I don’t know of many such instances regarding horses.
This is obviously very disappointing for you (& likely for breeder as well), if it’s something that you will dwell endlessly on, then I think you should accept breeder’s very generous offer of an alternate.

FWIW also have a horse that was observed by very experienced equine vet to have a grade 2 heart murmur as a 3 yr old (unbacked) - no vet since has detected the murmur (have not followed up with a cardiologist).
I was able to put aside the murmur & purchased anyway - horse is very talented & risk seemed acceptable (OK I worried but not obsessively).

[meow_meow]

Thank you Alto, I think she is quite special as well. I realise now I should have used another vet, but not living in the area and this vet was recommended by people online who lives in the state the horse is bought from.

Thank you for all the encouraging posts as well. This little girl is devine, which makes it harder making the decision to keep vs send back!

[Ghazzu]

Gorgeous animal.
I understand your angst.