"Bounce" in cart: horse's gait or Mfr flaw? UPDATE last post

[2DogsFarm]

Friend had a metal cart made by local Amish company.
Huge operation, they make all their own metal parts, have a spray station for powdercoating, etc.
She drives a Friesian, so lofty gaits, especially in front.
Other friends had a carriage made there & I had the same place switch my cart’s bench seat to their original design (now copied locally) of bucket seat w/armrests & cupholder.
All reasonably priced, but minor problems with all.
I’ll list those before asking my title question.

1)Carriage was ordered with pony shafts, came with horse size. It has side mirrors - screws used to hold them on were waaaay too short, resulting in a mirror falling off before carriage was even used. No nut holding screws either.
Buyer fixed all problems w/mirrors & shafts were replaced by company but with an argument as to what was ordered.

2)I’m happy with my bucket seat, except the coil springs are not welded to the frame. I only discovered this when I unloaded cart at home. Shop is 2h away, so PITA to return there for a minor fix. I’ve driven the cart & had no problem, but worry if I’m at speed, or on rough terrain it might be. I plan on getting someone local to weld the springs to the frame. I tried using Jen-Weld & no luck.
Am I missing something? Is it normal for springs to be welded to the bottom of seat only & not to the frame?

Now to my original & main question:
Cart for Friesian does not ride comfortably.
Way too much bounce. Not just my opinion, others have ridden in it & said the same.
Owner claims horse’s lofty gaits are to blame.
I say cart is not balanced correctly.
Another issue is she ordered brakes for the cart, no brakes installed. Again, the 2h trip to get that fixed is a problem.
Is she right & it’s always going to be a bumpy ride in this cart?
She has another metal cart that rides smoothly w/same horse.

I probably shouldn’t think this, but I’m feeling like there may be 2 sets of standards with this company.
One for local/ Amish customers.
One for English or not nearby, so less likely to bring things back for small - but important - details
Owner told us they ship all over the US.

What say COTH Drivers?

[Foxglove]

Gee, wish you lived closer and we could take that cart over and have it fixed —but anyway . . .

Can’t address springs/seat. Can say that the two wheeled “fore cart” I bought to drive my Percheron did bounce at a trot --had no brakes --however, I always thought the bounce was because the fore cart wasn’t exactly made for trotting, but was more of a “trailer hitch” for farm implements that had weight and would be pulled at a walk. The Percheron had a Springboard with four wheels we used on the road. The fore cart also did not have springs of any kind. I figured I got what I paid for at $800 --about 15 years ago. Sold it for more than that.

And perhaps I am naive -but as someone who has had dealings with Amish people for 30-40 years, I find they are about as honest as non-Amish people --I am sure some give “discounts” or better service to members of their community --but then, as a teacher, I did the same —if I had a teacher’s kid in my class --I made sure he/she had a great educational experience --not that I didn’t treat all my 4000+ students over the years well --and fairly --but when you know someone’s kid --and the parent is a friend --there is more attention paid to him/her. Dishonest or human nature —[short aside --at one point I had a kid in class with an unusual last name —same as the school superintendent’s last name --I made sure little Johnny StrangeName had a good educational experience in my class --about halfway through the year --I learned that the superintendent had no children --little Johnny was no relation . . .) back to my point —the Amish neighbors I have (4 --one on each side) are great neighbors --always willing to help. In turn, if they need a ride some place, I’ll take them at no charge --and they don’t take advantage of me --it’s stuff like sick baby, don’t want to take the buggy out in the cold . . .

The Amish harnessmaker --he fixes all my stuff --never more than $10 --and sometimes has suggestions on how to fix it better. He asks after my archery competitions and seems like an honest person --I am sure he could charge me $20 for broken reins --but usually it is $5-10 --charges by the hour and if it less than an hour, he doesn’t charge me except for materials. I also patronize an Amish sporting goods store where I buy my arrows and use their range for shooting in the winter. Again, the bowyer charges me about 1/2 what the “English” bowyer charges for the exact same arrows. If anyone is taking advantage of me, it’s the local non-Amish archery store —

For years I used an Amish farrier for my draft horse (riding horse farrier said he didn’t have the tools for my Percheron’s big feet) --the Amish farrier could have charged me for a new set every summer —instead, he told me after I had Charlie shod the first time (we only shod him for summer driving on the roads), to “save my shoes” and he’d just do a reset every summer —In his whole life, Charlie only had one set of shoes . . .since we used borium on them, they never wore out . . .

I think you should take a pix of that cart’s springs, and send it to me. I’ll run it over to the manufacturer (Luxx?) and ask if it has been done correctly. If not, I’ll see if they will comp you for having it welded there . . .never hurts to ask . . .

Cart similar to mine:

[2DogsFarm]

Not trying to tar all Amish by any means!
My friends in Orland - since 1984 - have very close ties to several Amish families, all good.

The young Amishman who broke Bugs to drive was only supposed to have him 60-90 days & I paid what he asked upfront for that time (+ 50# oats to transition Bugs to what I fed).
We took him there in September, but weather turned ugly & he asked me if he could keep Bugs’ through Winter, so he could get more training in harness done.
Ended up there until the end of May the following year. He never asked for a penny more & sent me back a Daudy-Safe mini
I gave him a sizeable Aldi gift card & cash* to each of the 3 teen & pre-teen sons who helped him with Bugs.

*Orland friend advised Amish kids rarely have cash of their own (they were very happy).

So I have no axe to grind with the Amish as a population in total.
Though I did have one very minor issue with a harnessmaker. Resolved easily & I got a very good price for what I bought.

But this string of coincidental problems got me thinking.
BTW: LUXX has done work on a lot of Club trailers as well as for Taylor.
If I were to shlep my cart all the way to Topeka, may as well take it to Shipshe.
The springs on your cart are same as mine.
I’d call the Mfr first to ask about the springs.
But it’s a simple job & someone near me can easily do it.
IF, springs s/b welded to the frame.
In my lack of knowledge, maybe they should not.
Anyone?

Before I strayed off on a tangent, I was mainly interested in the “Gaits make Bounce” question.
Looking for input from someone who drives a horse with a lot of action in front to a cart meant for roads & trails.

[Foxglove]

There is one aspect to our Amish purveyors of goods and services that I have found irksome --but it isn’t just the Amish --happens at the non-Amish Implement store too —if there are men in the store --I am invisible (and at my height of almost 6’ and Dolly Parton blonde hair --that’s a hard one to believe). I have actually stood waiting (invisible) for 45 min while the Amish purveyor chatted with his Amish (male) customer --who then didn’t make a purchase. Purveyor never even looked my way! I had time and I am stubborn, so I waited him out —finally the Amish dude left and there was no one in the store but me so tough to ignore me! (FYI I was buying a harrow). But at the Implement store (non-Amish where I get my chainsaw sharpened) --I was IN LINE and the clerk looked around me and asked the MAN behind me what he needed. Sometimes, I let stuff like that go (like at the chemical company where I know I am their smallest customer and someone buying chemicals for 30,000 acres is more important than me buying for my 20 acres) --but hey, a chainsaw is a chainsaw --so I just stepped forward and put my chainsaw on the counter and said, “I believe I was next!” and gave him my “Teacher Death Stare” —he mumbled something about “thought you were together,” --right . . .but why was I holding a chainsaw???

The Percheron had a lot of knee action when pulling his light buggy and cart --he was short pastern-d and vertical in his movement. Always thought that’s why he couldn’t do Prix St. Georges --that and the fact that I didn’t know what half the movements were.

[2DogsFarm]

@Foxglove

but why was I holding a chainsaw???

To go all Texas Chainsaw Massacre on him?

I’ve experienced Little Woman Syndrome too.
And nothing to do with my 5’2"

When I bought my last SUV, salesman was intent on showing me the features I had no use for.
Lighted visor mirror
Phone syncs through dash
Discombobulated him by asking for proof the hitch was part of a factory tow package, then checking under the hood for the added trans & oil coolers (thanks to Taylor showing me on last vehicle )
Left him speechless when I tested the hitch assembly from my old car to make sure it fit the new receiver

[red_mares]

I got one for you. I was in Lowes looking at hardware. Another guy was there and had no idea what he needed and rang whatever bell was there to call for help. A store employee came to the aisle and immediately asked me, not the guy, what I needed help with. GRRRRR.

[2DogsFarm]

Sigh…
{MAJORROLLYEYES}

[house]

The amish are the Amish, at least they are consistent. That said the coil springs may only be welded on one side, if they dont fall out that is probably the way it was designed. 2 wheel carts are balanced one side on the horse, so they will always have a bounce in them. I drive a 4 wheel cart at home for this very reason. if the cart is not balanced it will be worse, I typically figure a cart is balanced balanced if I can lean all the way back and the cart should come off the horse, if I sit straight straight up it should put weight on the horse. I have found very few carts that do this and the ones that do it is pretty much the max adjustments. so you your mileage may vary.

For what it is worth I don’t like brakes on a 2 wheel cart, but if you paid for it you should get your moneys worth.

[2DogsFarm]

@house

coil springs may only be welded on one side,

???
By “one side” do you mean top < to bottom of seat, or bottom < to the cart’s frame?
Or welded top & bottom on 1 side of the seat?

A bounce to a cart is expected, as shafts float in the tugs.
In my wire Easy Entry & wood show cart there’s negligible bounce at any gait, in an arena, or on trails. Wire cart has heavy-duty metal wheels, show cart has wood.
But in friend’s new cart - with wood wheels - riding as a passenger is uncomfortable & I imagine driver alone gets jarred even more.
Her older metal cart is heavier & doesn’t have the extra bounce when driven to the same horse.
IIRC, it has wood wheels, but I could be wrong.

I don’t know why she wanted brakes, but since they weren’t built in…

[house]

@2DogsFarm

By “one side” do you mean top < to bottom of seat, or bottom < to the cart’s frame?
Or welded top & bottom on 1 side of the seat?

I would think either to the cart or to the seat.

on another note carts that have springs built into the seat dont typically have a suspension, and the seats on the spring basically do nothing.

I would check the balance, like I said if you lean way back in the seat ideally you should be able to pick the shafts up out of the carriers. if there is too much weight on the back of the horse it will make the ride worse.

[2DogsFarm]

Friend has been driving far longer than me & can be opinionated. Very opinionated
To her mind, it’s her Friesian’s gait that makes the ride what it is in the new cart.
Though, I may ask her why her older, heavier cart doesn’t have the same problem

[RMJacobs]

I never noticed any up and down bounce in my Amish made metal easy entry carts. Forward and back to some extent at the trot, sure. Interestingly, my friend’s very expensive custom made Meadowbrook bounced a lot. Her driving horse was way bigger than my ponies, so it might have been due to the more powerful horse.

My wheels were meant for pneumatic tires, but after lots of walking home after getting a flat, I went with airless tires. It was more rolling resistance for the pony, but was certainly easier on me. I didn’t notice any difference in the ride when I switched tires. Walking hasn’t been one of my skills for an awful lot of years due to disability, so it sucked when I’d have to ground drive home. I would usually try to call my husband to drive the car over, take over the ground driving and let me take the car home, but somehow he never once answered the phone when this happened. Then, when I’d get home limping, he’d ask why I didn’t call him. You didn’t answer, dude!

Rebecca

[luvmyhackney]

If it’s a super light easy entry, it could be the horses motion making it bounce all around, especially if not properly balanced.

Does it bounce more or less if you add additional weight on the cart?

[2DogsFarm]

I’m assuming More bounce if she doesn’t have a passenger, but I’ll have to ask.
New cart is lighter than the bounceless one - both metal Easy Entry models.

@RMJacobs Point taken about more powerful horse
& Shame! on DH’s failure to pickup (phone & you!)

[2DogsFarm]

No answer to the Bounce question, but I think my springs were done as they should be.
Last night a Carguy friend took a look after I asked if he could weld them for me.
His advice:
Springs are too lightweight to be welded & might be damaged - crack - if they were.
He pointed out a bolt that was welded into the top of the springs & advised the nub of a bolt they sit on s/b sufficient.

Jury’s still out on the Bounce.