bounce/no bounce`

There’s been a brief but focused discussion on the CD-L about two-wheeled vehicles, bounce and balance. It was interesting enough that I thought I’d bring it up here.

I’ve always enjoyed the interactivity of the two-wheeled vehicle, and the ability to float the shafts in the tugs so that there is neither weight on the saddle nor bounce in the cart. This is how I was taught a startling number of decades ago, and it has never been a problem until recently, when a newly purchased, long awaited cart proved very difficult to balance for no bounce.

That’s when I discovered that there is another whole world out there – a world of people who believe that bounce is inevitable in two-wheeled vehicles, and that the shafts should always carry weight in them.

Unfortunately, the builder of my new cart turned out to be one of them.

I have not yet given up on balancing the thing, though I’m becoming increasingly desperate – now using old scuba diving weights tied on the back. Meanwhile I’m discovering a whole lot of reasons NOT to want bounce in the cart!

So I thought it would be interesting to hear other people’s observations and experiences, and hope for some tips to balance my new vehicle.

Whatcha think?

I hate 2 wheel vehicles. I have never had one that did not bounce except my original EZ Rider Buckeye. But I did not know anything about 4 wheel vehicles then so it might have bounced and I just did not think anything of it. Now I drive everything in a 4 wheel. Much more a secure feeling for me. :slight_smile:

Didn’t intend to bash two-wheeled vehicles. I love them. I have four that do NOT bounce, ever. One is my 130-year-old village cart. Three are versions of easy entry carts. They all balance easily and travel as though floating – far more comfortable and interactive and less noisy than my four-wheeled vehicle, which I sold because I found it boring. I think two-wheeled or four-wheeled is just one of those personal choice things.

I hate 2 wheel vehicles. I have never had one that did not bounce except my original EZ Rider Buckeye. But I did not know anything about 4 wheel vehicles then so it might have bounced and I just did not think anything of it. Now I drive everything in a 4 wheel. Much more a secure feeling for me. :slight_smile:

I have 2 young mares I am starting. I have a 2 wheel Ahonen that was their first vehicle, but as soon as I could I moved one into my Kuhnle 165. The other mare is a little behind the other in her training and I thought I would move her to a more substantial Bennington Buccaneer. The bounce in it was so bad I only did 2 circles at the trot and when she started getting big eyed and nervous we quit. I drove her back in the Ahonen for 2 days and then just put her in the K 165. It is a bit heavy for her at this stage but she and I are both comfortable.

Mysparrow,

I have 4 two wheel carts. The only one that I can float is my old Frontier easy entry pipe cart. As much as folks bash them, they are pretty balanced. But the shafts usually are in the bottom of the tug.

My wooden road cart I have never been able to float, but it is very well balanced. We dropped the axle a couple of summers ago and although it is always on the tugs, the weight is minimal. There is no bouncing unless the going is pretty bumpy like small swales or ditches. I rarely drive it cross country so it really not an issue.

My antique 2 wheel is pretty much like the one above.

My new cart is still being tweaked, hubby finally got the slop out of the joint where the shafts connect to the dash. Haven;t had a chance to drive it yet. Before we got the shafts tightened the shafts were up, down. I am sure I need to balance this cart better.

I do know that you do not want to have the shafts slamming up or down in the tug loops. A constanct pressure is okay in a balanced cart as there is not a huge pressure on the back or the belly. .

So you may not be able to float your shafts as you have in the past.

Don;t know if any of this helps. Just sharing observations in the carts I have now.

Zanzer carries the weight of the cart for a 30 miles competitive drive and all of the miles we train and never never has come up sore backed.

You might post some photos, it might help us to see what you are dealing with.

It is a shame you spent a lot of money and are having trouble with this new cart.

Not to re-direct your thread, but what a pain when we pay so much for something and it is less than what we were promised. My sympathies. I am pretty much in the same shoes. It is a good thing my husband is a retired shop teacher who can make things work inspite of bad engineering and sloppy construction.

Good luck.

I’ve got 8 two wheeled vehicles of my own and a couple more here belonging to customers.

Also got one that I keep specifically to show folks what not to buy. That one is sold as meant to fit a 13 to 15 hand cob (!!! love to know how that works!), it’s poorly balanced and with appalling springing and it bounces as if you’re on a rocky road to Dublin… even if you’re in an arena with a surface as flat as a pancake!

The other factor to be considered though is the effect of the driver.

Even a beautifully balanced carriage will bounce if the driver doesn’t have a well balanced seat. Too often driving lessons don’t cover this at all. I’m convinced that it’s partly to do with the headlong rush to 4 wheelers. Personally speaking I always start novices with 2 wheelers and only when they can drive them well do they move on to learning how to drive a 4 wheeler.

Drivers should be aware that poor driving position and a poorly balanced seat limits the ability of the horse and driver partnership to achieve at optimum, is not elegant, can be dangerous and means the reins can’t be handled properly, effectively or correctly.

If you’re driving a 2 wheeler, good driving position and a knowledge of how you move impacts on the balance of the vehicle and it’s integral to learning to drive. Drivers need to know the likes of how to put weight in the shafts or take weight off to enable the horse to perform to his optimum and also to ensure comfort, safety and stability with the vehicle.

But I would stress that it’s not an easy skill for a driver to compensate for a vehicle that starts off being poorly balanced, incorrectly fitting or with inappropriate suspension for the surface being driven.

[QUOTE=MySparrow;4823226]
Didn’t intend to bash two-wheeled vehicles. I love them. I have four that do NOT bounce, ever. One is my 130-year-old village cart. Three are versions of easy entry carts. They all balance easily and travel as though floating – far more comfortable and interactive and less noisy than my four-wheeled vehicle, which I sold because I found it boring. I think two-wheeled or four-wheeled is just one of those personal choice things.[/QUOTE]

I have two here that I drive alot -neither bounce. Once is a Raber’s meadowbroke and one is a Vicksburg show cart (stud cart). Both are 48-50 inch wheels, they don’t boune -even smooth when cantering. I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about it. They just don’t bounce. Frankly, I read the discussion on CD-L, if I purchased a new cart and I bounced all over the place -I would be so unhappy. I feel your pain. I have bought plenty of things that turned out different than I thought they would. Pisses me off everytime.

My pioneer forecart (low wheel base), made of metal, VERY heavy -that one bounces. It has brakes, so I like to keep it for training but the truth is…I hardly use it because it drives me nuts at a trot and it is too heavy.

But they are all a different ride than the Carriage Machine Shop wagonette -smooth as glass but independent suspension, shocks, etc and four wheels.

At a local driving event recently -a new purchased, little pony took off, the driver lost control and the passenger fell out -getting severely injured (two days in the hospital). The cart was most definitely the kind that “bounce.,” the kind you could hardly pay me to get in to. It was a little wire-rimmed, metal pony cart. One of my general thoughts, upon reflection and we all had a lot of reflection that day -it was pretty sobering, was that carts should not bounce and that cart safety and driving with a bit with leverage is so important.

My other thought was thinking about the discussions about what to not buy when buying a driving horse.

My other thought was…HELMETS!!! But that is a topic for another day.

Another thought. The two young mares that I am training are DHHxArab and have a lot of loft to their trot. I have 3 sets of shafts for the Ahonen: pony, cob and horse. When using the pony shafts with a Welsh cross, the movement was not too bad. When using the cob shafts with my connemara who is a rather flat mover, the bounce was not too bad. The bounce with the smaller DHHxArab mare was a little worse. The bounce is the worst with the horse sized shafts and the lofty mover. So my question is: How much does a horse’s movement have to do with the bouncy shafts.

I suspect, Thomas, that you are going to tell me that you cannot use 3 different sets of shafts with one vehicle successfully. :slight_smile:

I change shafts on vehicles very often… and wheels!

Indeed it’s the only way you could make one vehicle fit that sort of range of ponies and horses.

I’ve got packers and spacers all over my own vehicles. I deliberately built them that way and so shafts can move backwards (under the vehicle) for a smaller horse or extend out or be turned to narrow or widen. That way it saves having to change the shafts too often, but I do indeed do that just the same as you.

“Bounce” though is mainly just poor balance generally and inappropriate suspension.

Some years back, there was a dedicated search by Barb Lee, of the harnessing and draught book fame, to find a “balanced” cart with constantly floating shafts. She was being heavily influenced by an Australian and his talking of the “perfect float” at all times, ideas. She modified her personal cart, and put on stuff no one else would use to get the float she wanted. I was on a Forum with her, heard and saw photos of her successes and failures, in getting her horse to work in this vehicle. Barb was a harness builder at the time, tried lots of modifications with harness, line of draught, all trying to get her particular horse happy in driving. He had issues of many types. She also was developing a lot of the ideas for what turned into her book.

She did some things like sliding seats on the cart, so passengers could modify the balance to suit the ground. Barb is big into LONG drives and 20 miles is not uncommon in the Parks and back country roads in her State. Lots of mountains, rough ground, so horse is WORKING and needs to be comfortable and unsore.

She did get the “float” in shafts a lot of the time, but having float all the time is impossible. One thing came up after she said how well she was doing, was the KIND of tug loops. I had to ask MANY questions to get that basic information exposed, because it was the key to her success and other folks inability to copy her. Her tug loops were modified, not what you get at any American shops. The Australian version is very elongated, 6" or more, which does allow a LOT of space for shaft float, in even bouncy moving horses. Her Morgan had a lot of vertical motion, so these modified tug loops were extremely helpful in her goal of floating shafts.

I have come to the conclusion that there is not going to be float 100% of the time, just physically impossible in all situations. Kind of the “Great Myth of Floating Shafts” that is promoted, but not achievable in real life all the time. You try, but don’t kick yourself if you don’t have float all the drive, especially if you are out on the roads and tracks having fun. Float is a goal, you just work on it, praise your horse when you get it during the drives.

We have gotten some 2-wheel vehicles with good floating action. Much of the ride can depend on the horse and his action, the ground you drive on, road surface, passengers. We definately work to make the vehicles balanced when hitched, so horse has little weight when the shafts come down. There is always some extra weight on shafts when people get in and out. Horse has to tolerate that well, stand quietly, not every person can quickly leap into the seat. Good training to wait for commands is your best tool here.

Design is a huge factor, getting the pivot point of axle correctly placed. In the past the crank where seat/body was moved, greatly helped balance the vehicles.

If I had to choose, I also would go with 4-wheels. The ride is better, more stable, little or no bounce. With independent shafts, no horse gait will influence the ride. Husband can’t tolerate the bounce of 2-wheelers, actually painful. We use the carts a few times on a flat, groomed surface with a new driving horse, then change to the light 4-wheeler. He is experienced as a driver, training new driving horses, his horse is ready for the change, so we don’t have problems.

I would NEVER advise a new driver or others training a young horse to drive, to start with 4-wheelers. Totally unsafe with no experience driving.

2-wheelers have a lot of good things about them. Just not what makes us happy here. We only have the two carts for breaking horses, one a racetrack jog bike, the other a nice Road Cart, 54" wheels, never use them at other times.

We like the ride of 4-wheelers, both hard springs of modern and the soft sway (grampa cars) of antiques.