I missed the FB post/ Can someone tell me what he said about Doug’s comments?
Please make sure your facts are correct before tossing them into the argument.
Crackers completed three of his five CCI4* attempts prior to this weekend, and had a fault free XC round at the fourth before being spun in final jog. That means he was totally jump-fault free at four of his six attempted CCI4* cross country rounds and I think we can all agree it would have been five of six if he hadn’t broken down yesterday.
He fell once, at a very high profile event, in a very high profile way, at a fence that claimed several other horses and riders in falls and probably should have been removed from the course. Three of his completed CCI4* XC runs were after that fall.
Please tell me what about that four-star record indicates he shouldn’t have been there.
Further, to totally shut down the argument that he didn’t belong at these levels, let’s look further at his 3*/Adv record.
Crackers has entered 24 A/3* competitions in his entire career. He was withdrawn from two of them prior to XC, once at Morven Park in a massive hurricane-level downpour in 2015 and once at Plantation this fall when Boyd fell from another horse earlier in the day.
From the remaining 22 A/3* competitions, he only had two stops total on his record, one from his very first CIC3* early in his career with PD in the irons catch riding for Boyd who had broken something. That’s it. No rider falls, horse falls or retires on his record.
I track every single horse on the American circuit who has run Advanced or 3*, as well as all American horses overseas running 3*. That horse had one of the cleanest cross-country records of any horse at the level.
So please, let’s shut down the argument that Crackers ‘didn’t want to play’ at this level. He clearly did.
As for the fact that he was spun last fall, let’s all keep in mind there are injuries like tendons that can last a long time and injuries like heel grabs that can be better in a couple of days. Both types can get you spun. The fact that Crackerjack was out competing the following spring and did a CCI4* with absolutely no problems getting through jogs is very telling as to which type of injury he likely had.
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I don’t recall exactly what it said, but something along the lines of “When someone speaks out against the injuries and deaths of upper level eventing today, they get attacked by Doug Payne and other people who are just trying to protect the sport.”
Does everyone who saw the post agree that’s an accurate summary?
While I haven’t yet read the FB comments in question, I do want to say that YES, sometimes good horses just take a bad step and it is over. When DD first started with Teddi Ismond, one of her Adult clients had a super, super amazing jumper named Boy Wonder (Rookie). I was driving down for a lesson when Teddi called to cancel on us, as they’d just had to put Rookie down over a bad step in the paddock. He wasn’t even running or bucking, just walked wrong and came in with a pastern broken in 5 places. It was so hard for everyone and I can’t imagine how hard for his owner. He wasn’t off in any way, sore, on bad ground, he was in prime paddock-land right by the gate where he could be watched and it just happened. So I know that it is hurtful and hard to go through but the idea that something more has to be behind it than just a wrong step at the wrong time is so speculative. Saying things like that is bound to make the owner and rider both feel even worse and at a time like this that’s not something we need to do. It’s one thing to have a conversation regarding footing changes, but doing it in a way that makes these people feel worse than they need to is just not necessary.
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Well said.
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I would say that is a nicer, watered down version of what he said - my recollection is that it was a little more personal/name-calling than that, and it failed to acknowledge the parts of Doug’s post that addressed working on safety concerns.
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DC, thank you over and over for clarifying this. Why is it that others post fabricated “results” fin order to trash a BNR?
Notice that Denny only trashes BNRs. He does not trash the local amateur who pushes her horse over and over at a level where neither should be. He posts pictures of himself, praising himself and his horses, and notice that when he posts a picture of someone else, it is invariably someone for whom he can claim the credit, or someone who is no longer eventing from 20 years ago. Can you imagine Denny posting a picture of someone like Phillip Dutton, pointing out how well a ride he is showing? Nope. Would never happen. He would never compliment such a rider.
And for those who think that the footing at events is worse now than in the past, think again. I was around “way back when” the footing wasn’t even prepared and the water jumps were chest high at times. Horses twisted legs and died on course. It was awful. It is not good now but please don’t blame this accident on the current direction of eventing without good evidence.
I do think that the Pau course is twisty/turny but Crackers galloped around foot perfect until he stepped “just so” as to be seriously injured. This sort of accident happens across all disciplines, footings, settings, and more. I am not saying it should not be researched thoroughly. Of course it should be. But this is an isolated event, highly uncommon, and not nearly as threatening as rotational falls.
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I never called them psycho, I said they get psycho defensive. Adjective not noun.
I am still seeing these posts going on and on about what a bad person Denny is. We get it, everyone is pissed at him.
is anyone talking about eventing safety or preventing deaths? No, they are talking about the “old man hasbeen who can’t accept change”.
its called Gaslighting, and it’s working. Draws away the bad attention the sport gets for fatalities and drops it all on someone who cares enough to make a stand, whether you agree or not, we are all entitled to our opinions.
Tell me why the BNRs are SOOO mad about Denny’s point if they think he’s a has been who knows nothing?
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I remember something to the effect that Boyd took the blame for that rotational fall at Burghley, so it probably wasn’t a question of the horse’s capability. As far as Pau goes, I also was admiring Boyd’s ride up until the accident. Perhaps in retrospect he could have slowed and collected the horse more prior to the change in footing.
Before Denny throws too many stones, perhaps he should make sure that he didn’t make some of these same mistakes when he was competing as a team rider. I know that there were an awful lot of horses that were on the scene one day, gone the next. What happened to them is a matter of conjecture. Wasn’t there a saying back then that any Olympic rider made the team only after going through a whole lot of horses to get there? I also remember when Bruce Davidson was competing and not everyone’s favorite rider, receiving a lot of comments about how many horses he went through.
Perhaps there was some prior damage to the bone even through attrition, but how could anyone know until after the fact? The horse was in England getting worked throughout the summer and certainly was in as good condition as any of the other horses competing. A very sad ending to an event. Luckily, however, he received immediate attention from the vets and all concerned. Condolences to Boyd and the owner.
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So now this thread, and the conversation on social media as well as the greater conversation in the eventing community, has been side tracked by the discourse on the finer points of the personality known as Denny Emerson. Talk about people not being able to see the forest for the trees.
Another well known and much loved horse has died on a 4* course. The only question any of us should be asking and discussing is did this death have anything to do with this course or with eventing in general? We owe it to Crackers, the horses before him and those that will come after him to answer this question and use that answer to do it better from here on out.
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Does this mean that anyone who advocates for a safer eventing world (and horse world in general) must be completely innocent of any mistakes ever? Who do we have left to build a better sport then?
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Yes, it absolutely happens. But do you truly believe that a horse is equally likely to sustain such an injury playing in its field as it is to sustain one galloping fast over a course with high fences, tight turns, and changes in terrain?
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That’s a question research can answer.
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But then are you discounting the fact that said ‘freak’ accidents happen? Only when in an intense competition can it be said no, no freak accident, this was caused. Are you discounting alittlegrey’s post because it doesn’t fit your theme? Was it caused by Boyd getting out of bed, and deciding to compete? Maybe and what if are terrible games to play. I am not taking sides here either, but sometimes, bad things just happen. I was watching too. He was jumping much better than what I saw in SC just weeks ago, when it looked like he fought Boyd every step of the way. And I am only a watcher, haven’t even thrown a leg over a horse in 10 years or so.
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Someone asked about Denny’s connection to Crackerjack (besides standing the stud). Here’s a nice article written back in April about him (the horse):
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Absolutely, Divine Comedy. Thank you. Just to add:
The spun was because he lost BOTH front shoes early on the course on 2016 Pau, still completed fault free, and they just could not get the one foot comfortable in 12 hours to pass a jog. He was 100 percent in a week when the foot bruise cooled. Had NOTHING to do with soft tissue from my memory.
This horse was an incredible jumper and very confident at the level; I’ve watched him go since he was first in Boyd’s barn, and have friends who have seen him go since he was a 4yo. The argument that the horse somehow did not belong at the highest level is beyond total fantasy - it’s ridiculous. The entire basis of the FB rants is false and thus have simply NO use at all except to be cruel and disrespectful - and what is truly dismaying are the people who “like” and support this useless drivel and rail against some sort of crazed view of a sport they have all invented in their minds.Does anyone of these naysayers pay attention? Fair Hill didn’t even have one frangible device activated! Boyd was having the ROUND of the DAY at Pau.
We are beyond sad for all of Windurra and especially Boyd and Lucy. Our hearts are broken for them. Two of the nicest, very best people in our sport!
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I’m don’t think anyone is doubting Boyd’s feelings for the horse, Boyd’s skill in riding, etc. At this point we need to acknowledge that and move on…to me the logical next step is to ask ourselves, is there anything, ,in hindsight, that can been done differently in the future to prevent such an incident that ended in CJ’s death? I wonder if horses that are prepared like the old long format days would have the tendon, etc. strength to better support a bone that had tiny stress fractures which would then prevent it from breaking when it hit the softer and deeper arena footing. I wonder if we eliminated the kind of footing that was in the arena, would that help prevent something like this in the future? In other words, anger and thoughts and prayers will only get you so far…we need to find out what likely happened and why and what we can do to help prevent it in the future…in other words, we need research…Every time we have one of these deaths the same things happens…nothing changes and we need to stop that.
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AlternativeID is was the opposite. The grass footing of the part of the course before coming into the arena was deeper and softer, the arena was less forgiving and harder, from what I have heard.
Thank you.
The USEA annual meeting is next month. Does anyone know how to get this subject on the radar? Get a discussion going? I will reach out to Carol to see if she has any suggestions.
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