No, not discounting that at all (and as I mentioned in an earlier post, Crackerjack’s injury may have just been one of those terrible, unavoidable accidents). I’m just pointing out that there are increased risks associated with greater physical demands and certain environmental factors. Our responsibility as good stewards of these horses is to limit those risks to the greatest degree possible.
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So how do you do this? Is there a line that we can all agree on?
There are people - even good horsepeople - who seriously limit their horses turnout time/space or bring them in the second they start running around. There are those who only turn their horses out solo. The reasons for will be because the horses are competition horses and they don’t want them to get injured.
Is that okay? Is it cruel? Is it unnatural? Does it keep the horse ‘safer’? It is an attempt to limit risk.
Cantering or galloping or even trotting across terrain will always present a certain degree of risk. Horses hanging out in close proximity to other horses will always present a certain degree of risk. But I don’t think there’s a good argument for keeping horses (1) at the walk on groomed footing or (2) isolated from other horses.
We all have our limits to what we’re comfortable with and to what we see as risk. My horses live out in groups and while I make sure fences are fixed and pastures are clean, I accept that something might happen due to their living situation. But I want them to live like horses and have a social life so that wins out over ‘risk’.
Any kind of competition or activity puts extra physical stressors. Despite losing a horse in a similar way to Boyd’s horse, I’m still happy to have horses in eventing. However, last year I decided that my best mare had done enough ridden XC and she’s now doing combined driving. Driving is still physically stressful, but it doesn’t have the injury risks associated with jumping solid fences at speed.
Incidents like Boyd’s are going to happen. I can’t comment on Denny’s arguments because I don’t do FB but I’m gathering that he didn’t think that horse should have been there based on previous performances. I’m not familiar with the horse so can’t comment, except to say that if one of my horses had a fall on course, that would be the horse’s last eventing competition. But that’s me, not Boyd or the horse’s owner.
And I do think it’s fine for anyone to have an opinion that a particular horse shouldn’t be out there at that level. I’ve expressed that very clearly and very publicly about horses I thought didn’t have the quality or were repeat fallers/leg hangers. If we’re going to be fans of and participants in the sport, we’re going to have opinions. I also think, very strongly, that we need to be able to discuss these differing opinions as if eventing is an actual sport and not a precious emotional outlet.
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The optimum time is based on the length of the course. Within that distance, it’s up to the course designer how many jumps and combinations are included within the maximum and minimum FEI specs. The twistiness will affect the course length, but again, that’s a designer decision within FEI maximum and minimum lengths.
I agree with most of what you said. And it is hard or near impossible to draw a common line in the sand saying “this is okay, but this isn’t.” For me, the level of risk becomes unacceptable when death as part of sport becomes a regular occurrence – especially when there are probably steps we can take to reduce the danger.
For right now, I’m going to take a break from this and go spend some time with the horses I can directly impact and work on the risks I have the power to manage. I sincerely appreciate your thoughts and the discussion – I think that this type of thoughtful, open conversation is a good starting point for creating a brighter future for the sport. Thank you.
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Isn’t Boyd the keynote speaker? Maybe he could push the message of the convention towards safety.
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Actually…yes. Yes I do. My rather large vet bills on multiple horses none of who were galloping fast over any course would say that is true. And I have a damn nice farm with as safe pastures as you can have. I own a few horses competing above prelim…one at 3* level…and yes, most injuries of my own horses as well as many many many others that I know have come in their field.
Fractured coffin bones, fractured legs, various soft tissue issues…and all in younger horses not even yet eventing. So yes…while I do worry about injuries eventing…I also KNOW my horse is still more likely to get hurt at home no matter how careful I am.
I’m absolutely gutted for Boyd, Lucy and all others who cared for Crackers. I know Boyd cared deeply for that horse. I’m just hoping Crackers and Colin have met up and are having some fun together.
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Divine Comedy, my original post was incorrect when I said he had completed one of three 4* attempts, and I edited to correct that. However, I still see only two of four CC1 4* completions on his USEA record. Where is the third completion and the fifth attempt?
http://useventing.com/competitions/profile?id=123517
If the third completion is not on his USEA record, then I apologize for only citing to his USEA record. I pulled it up when the DE post talked about his Badminton crash, and I wanted to see what else the horse had done.
And as for a successful 3* record, aren’t there plenty of horses who are great 3* horses but can’t quite cut it at the 4* level? So arguing that a successful 3* horse = a successful 4* horse isn’t accurate.
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Vineyridge, it seems to me that 100 meters of straight track or slowly arcing track would have a different impact on speed than 100 meters with three hairpin turns in it (even one hairpin). Do the rules take consistency of direction (for lack of a better term) into account when calculating distance and therefore time? I realize this is an exaggerated example. Back in the olden days when tracks were gallopy with fences meant to be taken in stride, this wasn’t as issue. Maybe it is or isn’t one now but it makes me wonder.
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I think this post from Matt Brown does an excellent job of summing up:
Here’s what’s keeping me up tonight.
The fact that Denny (and so many others), at this moment, feel the need to bring up what may, possibly, have a thickly veiled and deeply hidden valid question in terms of whether or not this sport asks too much of the horses - and turn it in to a very painful and undeserved personal attack on Boyd, is just completely cruel and ultimately makes any potential discussion-worthy point that may be in there utterly lost. As someone with three advanced level horses at different stages of layup or rest, who’s programs I have spent many restless nights fretting over, who see the vets for check ups and check ins on such a regular basis that my veterinarian probably has a lien on all of my assets, who’s entire bodies have been imaged and mapped in one way or another probably 10 times over at this point, who’s well being and safety I consider to be the most sacred and honored responsibility in my life - I do often ask myself if this sport at the upper levels is too hard on them, and I try to do everything right for them, and I still am ashamed to come up short despite my best efforts.
But yesterday Boyd and his team lost their incredibly special, scrappy horse simply because terrible things can happen in this life, no matter how hard you try to stay safe or mitigate risk, and to suggest otherwise about this particular situation is either dangerously uninformed or a willfully ignorant stance that strictly serves a cowardly agenda of using this heartbreaking accident as a lightening rod to wield atop a bitter soapbox.
Yes, riders are going to rally around Boyd at this moment, and we are going to refuse to give Denny’s argument any hint of legitimacy because he’s chosen the wrong accident to exploit.
Do we have too many accidents in this sport? Yes. Do riders care? I think that if you look at the amount of riders donating their time, money, and voices to the many usea safety and health studies and initiatives, you could not argue otherwise. Is it a perfect response that has solved every problem? Definitely not.
Does this sport push the horses too hard? If you look at the sport from the inside and see what is often done and accepted as normal in order to keep many, one may argue most, upper level horses going, many could say that it does absolutely push them too hard. Has this been the case throughout the evolution of the sport? I think if you talk to any honest and informed person who has ever been deeply involved in the sport, they would be lying or in possession of the most incredible luck to say otherwise. Is this unique to only Eventing? We may have more accidents than arena based sports like hunters, jumpers or dressage, but if you look at the amount of lame and routinely drugged horses in especially the hunter/jumper world, I don’t think you could possibly argue that that they don’t have horse welfare issues to address in their disciplines as well.
We can have this discussion, we should have this discussion, but it should be based in actual research based facts, and it should not be now. Not now, not because it’s inappropriate to have the discussion when there’s been an accident, on the contrary, I think respectful and well considered deliberation and debate at moments of crisis can often be the catalyst for change, but this is the wrong accident to seize upon.
Any good horseman will play the moments and even the months before a major injury or accident over and over again in their heads looking for answers and usually ways to blame themselves. What did I miss? Is my footing not good enough? Did I train too hard? Was that a funny step they took last Friday? I can guarantee you boyd is doing all of those things right now, and will be doing so for a long time. And in this case, that breaks my heart for him because there is probably nothing he could have done to have kept that horse from taking that horrible step yesterday.
Right now, as a community, we should be sending him nothing but support in what I’m sure will be an incredibly dark time, and I am just completely aghast at what is being lobbed his way instead.
It’s fine to bring educated, informed and unbiased discussion about the demands of the sport out in to the open, but let’s not level completely unfounded and clearly long-held personal vendettas at someone in order to start that discussion.
While social media is a great way to share information, bits of humor, and (so many) cat videos, it’s also unfortunately a way to insulate ourselves in a world that perpetuates our own worldview without challenge. It’s a way to bring thought provoking debate to a far larger group of people than we ever could have before smartphones and social networks and blogs. It’s a way to say things that you would never ever say to someone’s face, and as is very clear to me tonight, it’s a way to be incredibly cruel to one another.
When we decide to continue the discussion about this sport, social media will obviously be involved, and I think can even help, as long as it’s kept respectful and challenging views are considered and not stifled or deleted. And there are also more constructive ways to have this conversation: come to the annual meeting. I do it and cannot afford it, but I find a way anyways. Sit in on meetings, see what the committees are talking about, they may already be bringing up your various concerns and may welcome your voice. Join a committee. Actually do something to be a part of the solution. The world isn’t perfect yet, and life still does terrible and wonderful things to people when they do and don’t deserve them. But we won’t ever make things better if all we do is attack people and complain.
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Certainly the horse is more likely to injure himself in his pasture/paddock than on a 3* or 4* course. He should be spending more time out there so statistics alone would say so.
The reason BNRs are angry at DE is because many people look up to him and think that what he says goes. If he says the sport sucks now, people are going to believe it. No proof has to be given.
“The Good Old Days” when DE was competing. Where if you or your horse fell, you stood up and got back on and kept going. Yeah, those were the days.
Considering Doug Payne’s education and papers he’s written about making the sport safer, I think DE’s head is up his ass.
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I’m not sure why it doesn’t show up on his USEA record but he was clear at Rolex in 2015/2017 and at Luhmühlen in 2016. https://data.fei.org/Horse/Performance.aspx?p=A346DF85B7515F30F0E57F3F996C6BA9
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They are mad because someone they respect is being accused of neglecting the welfare of a horse.
BNRs are hugely supportive of safety research. Talk to some of them. Get to know some of them. Do a clinic with one of them. You may be surprised at the thoughtfulness and dedication of many of our top riders.
I do think it is terrible that someone is calling Denny an “old man has been who can’t accept change.” Curious as to where you obtained this quote.
Regardless, I would bet that they aren’t saying that because they want to detract from the issue of safety, by golly! WTF?!?!?!?
I am critical of Denny Emerson on this forum. Does that mean that I am gas lighting and "trying to take attention away from fatalities??
Geeze Louise!
It’s not really about pushing the horses too hard.
The real problem is the lack of margin for error. There are potentially grave consequences to even a small mistake. Leave a leg, stumble on take off or landing, misread the face of the fence. This goes for each XC obstacle individually – and you’re jumping 30 of them at the highest levels. Factor in tiredness (physical or mental), pilot error, simple distractions and it gets harder to stay in the safe margins.
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I didn’t think to look at the FEI record as I always just look at USEA record. I certainly didn’t “fabricate” results as someone mentioned earlier.
Regardless, BM said this course didn’t suit the horse. So why put a square peg in a round hole? He also said that a course like that doesn’t give a “good feeling” when you’re done. So why do it?
I agree with what JER said. Everyone is allowed to have an opinion, and people should be able to discuss serious issues like horse and rider deaths like adults and not with name-calling.
I still would like to know if there are studies that track breakdowns on courses, and if so, the # of breakdowns at each level.
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I am sorry to be so FB stupid, but I went to the Tamarack Hill page on FB, and th sole post I saw was 2-3 para.'s long:
"There are a lot more ways to have a relationship with a horse than by pushing them to the point that they get hurt or killed.
That is where I want to be. To go to that place where my horse is my friend, and not just some piece of athletic equipment.
Like it was 60 years ago. I want to go back to that. And I will."
Is this the post that is being referred to here?
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All of this is true. Everyone has a right to an opinion.
I know you did not fabricate results, but your facts were missing very important data pertinent to the discussion.
I’m not weighing in on the majority of this discussion, I personally think a lot of this is overhashed and unproductive. However, I think from a records standpoint it’s pretty undeniable that Crackers had plenty of good, solid four-star experience and that he is a four-star horse who had not been pushed beyond his athletic or mental ability.
I wanted to make sure everyone had the full story in terms of this horse’s record, who does not deserve to go down in history as a 3* horse pushed past his talent. To me, that is the biggest insult that Denny has offered in the past two days, accusing a rider and owner who bred the horse herself and owns him as a tribute to her dead son of pushing him past his limits for pure greed.
There are plenty of conversations to have about this tragedy, and to me the biggest question is whether abrupt footing changes including road crossings are having a bigger impact on the legs of our horse than we realized. I would imagine the racing industry may have such research available and hopefully it can be applied to eventing. The solution could be as simple as a gradual blending of footing into the transition starting X number of yards from the footing change.
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No. The relevant post was a direct accusation that Boyd rode his horse into the ground. It got removed. The post you quote also had many comments in the same vein, all of those comments got removed too.
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I think this is a really, really hard issue and comes back to the fact that (to me) horses are extremely, extraordinarily resilient. The issue is that they are not able to recuperate from a broken leg due to not being able to not weight bear (if that makes sense) and all the other associated complications with lungs etc when a horse is forced to stand still.
This is the difficulty that all equestrian sports face. Imagine if every child that broke an arm or leg died? That is the sad truth we deal with with horses.
A broken limb is ‘only’ a broken limb. People (myself included), break limbs in all manner of ways, some spectacular, some incredibly dull. It is not the break itself that leads to the death of the horse, the horse is often not in irretrievably awful pain at the point of breaking - it’s the sad truth that we can’t just pop them in a cast and tell them not to weight bear that results in death.
Can we possibly mitigate to the point of never breaking a limb? I agree with the above - the lack of margin for error is vanishingly, vanishingly small.
I’m not saying we shouldn’t evaluate what we can do better, but I’m just not sure that it is that possible, and maybe we should also be looking at veterinary/technical advancements to help the horse heal as effectively as humans can post a leg break. It’s a large piece of the jigsaw.
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Thank you, Doodlebug… I wanted to clue in on Denny’s post that was a theme of this thread. Very, very saddening time for Boyd and his family and connections. It seems that his highest highs and the lowest lows have been coming in rapid succession these past years.
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Here’s a screengrab someone took that I found further up this thread. Actually this screengrabbed bit isn’t too awful in terms of the accusations towards Boyd but as you read the thread Denny was pretty relentless in his accusations: https://i.imgur.com/NaIPpJy.jpg
