Brainstorming: reasons for dragging toes

[tohorse]

I have an OTTB mare on 8-week trial. We are on our fifth week and I’m inclined to buy her. Before I brought her over I did a basic PPE and x-rayed left stifle which flexed slightly positive (clean). Tomorrow I’m having a vet over that will do a more extensive work up for future reference/mgmt of any issues going forward. Generally I’ve been absolutely pleased with her behaviour and she’s been putting on a lot of muscle and become a lot more pleasant to ride. I don’t get the sense she’s in pain.
As part of that final diligence I’ve been reviewing our weekly videos and I noticed that she has started to drag her hind end in trot, which is something she didn’t do during trial ride and during first week of trial. I hoped I’d get some collective wisdom as to what I should check/rule out during tomorrow’s vet appointment.

The problem with a horse on off-site trial is that a ton of variables have changed. A couple of ideas I already had in mind:

• Not being ridden forward enough. Certainly possible, but it doesn’t seem to resolve on videos where I’m riding her more forward… But i’m totally open to people telling me that my riding could be a possible cause.
• Scratches. Possible, but how? She’s had a bad flare up of scratches, tho I can’t really see that it would make a horse drag its hind end?
• Hooves. Farrier reshod her on the morning when Week 2 video was filmed. Her hinds were on a different schedule than fronts, so to synchronise we had to reshoe her about three weeks after her last appt. That seems to co-incide with the start of her dragging. Interestingly her front end also really started opening up, so perhaps the two are related (i.e. more expressive front leads to a dragging hind?). Farrier is top notch and I have consulted him about issues about another horse previously - seems like a pretty conservative guy. Maybe worth getting x-rays of her hind feet?
• Lifestyle change. I’ve probably put her in a totally new exercise regimen. My impression was that she was ridden 4-6x a week mostly by advanced/intermediate lesson riders beforehand and they did quite a bit of jumping with her (looked like mostly single verticals up to 3ft). I did feel like the basics were missing so I decided I’ll just treat her like a completely green horse. When I ride I try really hard to focus on keeping her on a steady contact and as much as possible having her lift her back. I’ve been exercising her 5-6x a week, mostly trot, a few times a week I do lungeing in side reins either before I ride or as a separate training session. Some poles/cavaletti jumps and did a pretty long grid last week which IMO she handled very well. I try to do hills at least once a week - mostly at walk, some trot. She could well just be sore using all those muscles?
• Stifle weakness. Quite likely - she’s been putting on a lot of muscle and using parts of her body she didn’t before. I massage her back and poll on the regular, which she loves but I’m a bit at loss about what to do with hind. I saw her pop the left stifle that I x-rayed twice during the trial ride videos and sometimes I get a feeling (tho it could also be my paranoia) that she’s a bit sticky on the left. The stickiness/hind tripping has definitely improved over the weeks. So if she’s working them a lot more sore stifles would almost be expected.
• Saddle fit. although not perfect, but already adjusted to being functional by a fitter.
• Hocks. Quite possible it’s bog spavin or other hock issues. Will rule out with x-rays.
• SI Issues. Ok, but how to rule out?
• Neuro. Vet did the basic tests with tail hanging and so on, seemed fine. She seems to be handling hills just fine. The only episode that gives me a pause was when I taught her to take a bow using a carrot and she went scary deep into that stretch and almost landed on the front of her pastern on the opposide side of me and was about to fall sideways. After that episode though she was very conservative about this stretch and never went nearly as deep again, so I ascribed it to her being a treat monster (which she 100% is), try-too-hard thoroughbred.
• Kissing Spine. Don’t get the drift she’s uncomfortable in any way.
• My paranoia. Please tell me I am crazy and I should stop worrying

Comments on these and anything else?

[IPEsq]

I think you are not riding with enough impulsion as one part of the problem. That said, you’ve done a really nice job at getting her a lot more relaxed, and relaxation is the most important thing to get first with one like this. She’s also just figuring out the contact, meaning the connection from the hind legs to the bridle. Although she didn’t drag at first, she did that tense OTTB shuffle thing behind. She’s taking longer strides with more freedom now, but she hasn’t figured out engagement yet. Not a surprise with a leggy green OTTB. Probably not something you could fix immediately and could be a significant reason for the dragging that wouldn’t bother me.

So, I don’t think I’d panic about there being something wrong with her. But, I would xray the hind feet anyway since you have made a connection with the shoeing. Not bad to have a baseline anyway. It would also not be a bad idea to image the hocks as well to know if anything is there, since you are asking for harder work from her now.

And I’d probably also have a bodyworker assess her to see if any of it could just be explained by soreness from using herself differently. But I’d pay attention especially to if she is sore in the lower back or SI. Her canter doesn’t really say SI problem to me, though. But she could be sore.

I see the dragging issue as bilateral, so I’m not sure it would necessarily be from the one weak/sticky stifle.

[stargzng386]

The first sign of EPM for my horse was dragging hind toes. Add a neuro test to your vet visit.

[Renn_aissance]

I didn’t watch all your videos, just weeks 3 and 4. To me she looks bilaterally sore in the hind end. If you’ve been doing a new exercise program for a couple of weeks now it’s the right time for that to happen. Have your vet have a look tomorrow, and if the x-rays are fine try giving her a couple of days off with hand walks and Robaxin and see if the next ride is better. I mention the x-rays because she looks like she is not articulating either hock as well as I think she might do, and in your week 4 video she looks like she wants to be low on her front end, suggesting to me that she does not want to carry on her hocks. That could also be body soreness, but it sounds like you’ve got reason to believe there’s something to rule out there.

[NO-CTRL]

I had some random hind toe dragging in the trot in my mare i have owned for 3 years, maybe 6 months ago.
Nothing you would expect to cause it, she was in full work, very fit, excellent top line. Walk and canter were fine, just the trot, both under saddle and in hand had the hind toe drag.
Did it on both sides, both reins. The ride the day before she had been fine.

Had my vet out to check and did not find anything suspect, did a basic lameness exam (no blocks), rads of hind feet (suspected possible NPA, but all ok there), neuro exam, vet suggested giving her 4 weeks off to see if it came right as he couldn’t find anything obviously wrong.

Got the chiro out, she had a pinched sciatic nerve and was out around the SI area. He did some work on her, gave her 3 days off and lightly started riding again. After 2 weeks she was totally back to normal and haven’t had the problem return.

If your vet can’t find anything, i absolutely suggest a good chiropractor.

[NO-CTRL]

PS after watching the vids i agree she is sore on both hinds, the likelihood IMO of BOTH hocks being sore at the same time all of a sudden? Low. Both hind legs are attached to the pelvis though… start at the pelvis / SI!

[gertie06]

In my experience, hind end toe dragging is often related to stifles, as you suspected. Probably worth taking some images.

Question: do you ever notice her “falling out” behind at the trot?

[endlessclimb]

You need WAY more impulsion to see whats going on. Can you take a video where you are riding REALLY forward? Of course she’s shuffling if she’s doing the old-lady trot. She’s nowhere close to tracking up.

[SonnysMom]

I have had a lot of luck with Estrone for horses that seem to have week stifles.

[starsandsun]

I would test for Vitamin E levels and do an SI ultrasound.

[halt]

That’s a lot of head-tossing in the first video. Week 0 bilaterally lame behind. Week 4 shows improvement.

I would not be surprised if she flexed positive on the right hock and left stifle. I think you’re dealing with a foot issue. Make sure she is not NPA behind.

Nice mare. If she’s the 2013 version, she’s born to event.

[punchy]

She looks like a sweetheart.

She is moving better as the videos progress, so I would be encouraged by that. She doesn’t have a whole lot of animation behind, but also looks like she may be a bit straight with her angles back there, so some of it may be her confirmation.

In the last video, after you did the canter gymnastics, I thought her hind end went all funky when you completed it. I’d say sticky/weak stifles. She doesn’t look neuro to me, just sometimes unbalanced at the canter, which is common for an OTTB. I would do lots and lots of trot poles to encourage her to step out and use her back end more, gain some strength and confidence. It looks to me like a slow pace and a polite headset have been prioritized over getting good, free movement. First get the movement, then work on harnessing it. I saw a grass hill next to the ring, I’d walk then trot her up and down it regularly. My 2 cents.

[tohorse]

Thanks all - COTH delivered again. As hoped I’m coming to the appointment with a set of hypotheses and I’ll update tonight on what the vet discovered/thought.

[tohorse]

The vet came out with her sensor equipment she uses to detect and quantify lameness. Said there is something tiny that the computer is picking up going on with the left hind/right front pair (it’s sensitivity is about 1/8 inch), but it is something she can’t personally see. She’s a FEI vet so used to evaluating lameness and said she’d pass a jog at a competition without the slightest doubt. Nothing odd on hard ground either. There was absolutely NO dragging of her hind feet - vet went through the jog and lunge footsteps to show me that there were no drag lines. I kid you not - I rode the horse afterwards and she didn’t drag even the tiniest bit and I have it on tape. :lol: I guess those of you who voted for soreness that might have been it? She’s had it pretty easy for the last few days and she was very playful on the ground and for the first time ever - even u/s :o

Vet suggested I image hocks, stifles and front feet. The front feet require correction, but that’s something visible and the farrier had already told me about. There was a bit of sclerosis of the hocks but nothing dramatic - she said I might need to inject them, but not now, maybe, in a couple of years. Everything else cleaner than you’d expect for a former racehorse (no chips, spurs or anything really funky).
She does acupuncture as well and said she’s one of the best TB reactions in terms of leg and back palpations she’s seen. SI could be the culprit, but she said she’s not getting the vibe she’d be sore there. We had a drawn out discussion about imaging the back and ultimately she said given that she had zero back sensitivity, the likelihood of something being off there that x-rays would pick up was small. She said she can’t block out nerves for something this insignificant that she can’t even visibly detect, so if I really wanted to get to the bottom of this I’d have to get a bone scan but practically she said it may not be worth it. Given that she’s on trial she suggested I put her in the work she is supposed to do (i.e. regular jumping 2-3x a week and not just cross-rails) for the next month and see how she holds up. If she’s doing great and getting even stronger go ahead and buy her, if I feel like the hind starts getting funky/draggy she will do another lameness test with the sensors to compare now and then and troubleshoot from there. She shown me a couple of areas to massage to reduce soreness. Also told me that she’s pretty straight behind and weak in back and hind-end relative to the front, so hills, hills, hills. She was reassured when I told her that she’s already much bigger in the hind a month later.

So… well, no real answers, no bad news either but wait and observe. I did some jumping today (2nd time since she’s been here) and IMO she was fantastic. It’s incredible how much their technique starts improving when they’re starting to build muscle and become less tight.