BRAND spanking new to dressage....but I am terribly confused about pressure.

[poloxpony]

Good morning, COTH. I haven’t been on these forums in 10 years and I lost my old account information. My first and latest lesson brings me to your knowledge base.

am a solid rider, who grew up in the hunter world, took a back seat to my own riding as my kids played their horse sport and I primarily became the horses’ fitness rider and baby wrangler and pony leader (for polo we pony sets)

Well, my nest is empty and I decided I need to gain back some polish to my riding and I had my first dressage lesson two days ago!

It was with a well known local trainer’s leased schoolmaster at 3rd level. Her assistant taught the lesson. My arms and hands are still sore from the amount of contact I was required to pick up to get this horse round. I know I have very soft hands, I know as a hunter that I have way less contact, I know that riding babies and ponying, I am not using any of the muscles needed for dressage. I know I should close my hands and hold the reins like a baby bird is in them.

I truly feel like I was trying to pick up a rope that was attached to a 20 pound bucket. I know the horse was not happy but the only time he did become round was with this much contact. Honestly, I feel like if I rode this guy every day with this much contact, I would have some guns for arms. Oh, and that baby bird…he would be a goner.

No, I am not exaggerating nor off base on the amount of pressure required to bring this horse onto the bit. My daughter had two beautiful schoolmasters leased to her growing up and I remember when I would engage their back end and pick up the reins, the fell into my hands and carried themselves. It was beautiful and lovely.

Is this the normal? What am I missing? Please help me but be kind

[mmeqcenter]

I am fairly new to dressage, but I would say no this is not the normal. My mare feels light as a feather whenever my trainer tells me I’m getting something right. I’m a h/j convert, so it feels like I have a TON of contact when I’m where trainer tells me to be, and I still don’t feel like my arms are being pulled off. When I started lessoning with her two years ago, I mentioned to her that I had once ridden two horses owned by a friend who evented and they were (supposed to be) trained up through ~3rd level. They both were absurdly heavy in the bridle, my arms were jelly when I got off, and I asked her if that was how it was supposed to feel. She said no.
*My trainer has her Bronze, Silver, and Gold medals, so I’m pretty confident she knows what she’s talking about

[Rerider54]

@mmeqcenter

I am fairly new to dressage, but I would say no this is not the normal. My mare feels light as a feather whenever my trainer tells me I’m getting something right. I’m a h/j convert, so it feels like I have a TON of contact when I’m where trainer tells me to be, and I still don’t feel like my arms are being pulled off.

yes, yes, yes… but as I have been told, ‘the horse didn’t read the book’. Some days are better then others, heck some moments. We are all working towards that light contact, the hand shake not the 20 pound bucket. I have been told my mare is not easy ( or light), but at times she IS LIGHT. With a schoolmaster there may be other issues. Lots of riders, day after day can be a mental drag for a horse. Plus there could be physical issues. Talk it over with the instructor. I have mashed a few of those baby birds, alternately I have let many fly away (and then the reins slipped). We keep working towards light, attentive, balanced and forward.

[Samantha37]

You might just not have had his hind legs active enough for him to be more in self-carriage. My 3rd level horse likes to lean on people who don’t know how to activate his hind legs enough. He is not self motivated at all and can teach a beginner lesson and then turn around and do a 3rd level test (used to be able to- he’s older now) so he is kind of special. If you try to ride off his face he will present a pretty picture but won’t actually be engaged behind and that is something that people run into sometimes on him.

I can get him quick and light but it takes lots of well timed releases and getting his hind legs quicker.

MTA: you also may not be able to do a well timed release (specific to dressage) which in turn helps horses not lean on you

[mmeqcenter]

@Rerider54

yes, yes, yes… but as I have been told, ‘the horse didn’t read the book’. Some days are better then others, heck some moments. We are all working towards that light contact, the hand shake not the 20 pound bucket. I have been told my mare is not easy ( or light), but at times she IS LIGHT. With a schoolmaster there may be other issues. Lots of riders, day after day can be a mental drag for a horse. Plus there could be physical issues. Talk it over with the instructor. I have mashed a few of those baby birds, alternately I have let many fly away (and then the reins slipped). We keep working towards light, attentive, balanced and forward.

Completely agree! Everyone, and every horse, has good days and bad days

[kande04]

Check out Phillip Karl’s School of Legerete before you buy into the idea that horses should be heavy on the bit.

Back when I first started taking dressage lessons (1990’s) I was taught to pull/hold my horse together, which just never seemed right because everything I’d ever read about dressage talked about light aids, which was just the opposite of what I was being taught. It took me awhile to figure it out, but someone started talking to me about Racinet, which lead me to the Baucherists, which led me to the “French” school/Riding in Lightness/balance before movement.

I’ve never looked back simply because this is what feels “right” to me.

[joiedevie99]

As others have said, no this isn’t the end goal. That said, the problem isn’t necessarily him or his training. It may be that you aren’t producing enough activity behind, aren’t coordinating your aids well enough, aren’t utilizing your core and seat properly, aren’t releasing such that he can’t lean, etc.

Dressage is hard. Everyone talks about those amazing ah-ha moments when everything comes together and you feel something new. Don’t forget that the other 44 minutes of your 45 minute lesson are likely spent in pursuit of correctness - but not actually there.

[Scribbler]

This isn’t the end goal, but moreover I have never seen anyone start riding a horse like this and then develop the horse to be lighter over time.

Yes, it is very common. Where I live it is standard operating procedure. Horses get used to going like this and are hard to retrain if they change owners.

My coach has taught me techniques to get the horse to carry itself and not hang on the bit

Anyhow it is standard low-level dressage style at least in my area and you can certainly continue on and compete riding like this.

If you don’t like or want to ride with your full body weight on the horse’s mouth you need to shop for a different trainer.

Btw I find riding like this is not good developmentally for returning riders because they get used to balancing on the reins and feel insecure riding in softer contact even when that’s necessary.

[Sue_B]

I’m guessing you lack the core muscles to ride a dressage horse effectively at this moment and so you are relying on your arms/shoulders to provide the support and the horse is savvy enough to go along with it. No worries, 1000 planks and position lessons on the lunge will bring them on in no time! My eventer friend struggles with this as well. Even her jumping coach told her she needs to get more serious about building core strength but…
I broke my back a year or so ago and lost a lot of core strength (about 50% of it has returned) and a short session on a mechanical horse showed me just how far I still need to go. Unfortunately, neither of my horses “lean” on the bit so they aren’t much help reminding me, then again I have about 40 years of “dressaging” under my belt, so some things that you still need to learn, just come naturally now. Welcome to dressage, it is a great journey on which to embark.

[poltroon]

The first time I tried a dressage lesson I had an experience just like this. No it is not correct or normal. Since then I have found training that suits me better. There are dressage horses out there that are light, lovely, and pleasant to ride.

One thing is that the energy must come from behind - the horse must be going forward and up into your hand, and then your hand can guide the shape. So, this horse might go lighter and better if you add more energy from behind - but the instructor should have seen that and guided you to it.

[kashmere]

My 3rd level mare would very happily become a lead weight in your hands if she wasn’t ridden to prioritize forwardness and being in front of the leg. Some others get heavy because they “take over” and become like a freight train (this is still generally a symptom of being behind the leg, but just the speedy version!) Many horses have the tendency to become heavy if ridden in a way that encourages it.

I think the bigger question is what direction was the coach giving you? What were they focused on - when did they give you positive feedback and when were you asked to adjust?

If the focus was on getting the horse round, prioritizing where the head was or getting a particular outline in the horse’s body, that would be a red flag for me. If, however, you were being coached to - for example - send the horse forward actively and get a consistently prompt response from your forward aid in order to set the horse up to be able to be ridden into contact effectively - it could simply be that, well, riding into a correct feel is hard. I’d suggest talking to your coach about it and seeing how they explain.

[sascha]

Not normal. Run away as fast as you can in the opposite direction if the instructor isn’t shocked and horrified at the amount of contact you had to take and offers an apology and a clear way help you figure it out the right way.

I pretty much had my hands ruined when I was a teenager because of 2 trainers that didn’t disabuse me of my misconceptions and bit pressure. Also had that reinforced by (an Olympian) clinician who went on about how sometimes it feels like you’re water-skiing because it takes so much arm strength. She also advocated soaping horses’ teeth if they were grinders. Sigh.

To put a point to this cautionary tale, that was when I was a teenager. I am in my 50s now and STILL struggle to overcome those few years when I get a horse that needs a little extra support. I STILL, so many years later, will allow them to cross the line and get heavy because that was drilled into me for so long

Run away.

[merrygoround]

@poloxpony

Good morning, COTH. I haven’t been on these forums in 10 years and I lost my old account information. My first and latest lesson brings me to your knowledge base.

am a solid rider, who grew up in the hunter world, took a back seat to my own riding as my kids played their horse sport and I primarily became the horses’ fitness rider and baby wrangler and pony leader (for polo we pony sets)

Well, my nest is empty and I decided I need to gain back some polish to my riding and I had my first dressage lesson two days ago!

It was with a well known local trainer’s leased schoolmaster at 3rd level. Her assistant taught the lesson. My arms and hands are still sore from the amount of contact I was required to pick up to get this horse round. I know I have very soft hands, I know as a hunter that I have way less contact, I know that riding babies and ponying, I am not using any of the muscles needed for dressage. I know I should close my hands and hold the reins like a baby bird is in them.

I truly feel like I was trying to pick up a rope that was attached to a 20 pound bucket. I know the horse was not happy but the only time he did become round was with this much contact. Honestly, I feel like if I rode this guy every day with this much contact, I would have some guns for arms. Oh, and that baby bird…he would be a goner.

No, I am not exaggerating nor off base on the amount of pressure required to bring this horse onto the bit. My daughter had two beautiful schoolmasters leased to her growing up and I remember when I would engage their back end and pick up the reins, the fell into my hands and carried themselves. It was beautiful and lovely.

Is this the normal? What am I missing? Please help me but be kind

No! It is not normal.

This instruction is teaching you nothing. Your instructor is focusing on “frame” at the cost of you learning how much your body needs to work to engage the ind end.

Unfortunately too many riders are willing to throw in the towel when they find out how hard the must work. But take comfort on the the knowledge that as you learn which muscles to use when, it gets much, much easier. In fact you don’t need to think about it at that point, you just do.

However, since it takes a lot of understanding of the basics, and in a desire to not lose students , many coaches turn to the quick fix.

Look for a real teacher. Nor everyone has schoolmasters but many are capable of teaching you on your own horse. It may take longer, but you will really learn.

There is a lot of pleasure in learning the how and why, and getting it right.

[kande04]

I think something that would be endlessly useful to beginning (and maybe all) riders, would be to be able to see the readouts from advanced riders using rein sensors. I realize that it’s not all about the reins, but I just think it would be so much easier if that data was available (or at least I know it would have been very useful to me to have measurements to go with the words).

I rode in a clinic with a bnt one time and one of the riders asked him how much weight, in pounds, we should have in our hands. He said no more than a pound. So from then on I refused to take any more than the weight of a pound of butter.

[Scribbler]

We certainly have local dressage instructors who look only at the head and tell riders to lean their entire body weight on the reins.

”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹”‹

[MsM]

First, I would speak to the instructor about your concerns. As an assistant, she may or may not have a lot of teaching skills. Did you mention the amount of contact? I watched one H/J rider at a dressage clinic. I didnt notice anything troubling about the instruction, but when the lesson was over I heard her complaining to a friend that the horse was “pulling my arms out!” It was not obvious during the ride and the show-oriented rider was so used to finessing problems that she just made it look easy and didnt say anything!

[poloxpony]

Thank you for all of those who were able to read some of the words that I forgot to put into my story. :lol: I think you knew exactly what I was trying to express.

So even the babies, we ask them to ride from the hind end into our hand. We do not just have contact that is strong. We like the babies to feel our hands and know that they are there and it is a comfortable place to be. We kind of what them looking for the contact but learning to pick themselves up and carry themselves into it. It is all baby steps to get to this point. Being able to reward a baby with soft and giving hands is my ultimate goal. I never want them to feel like I am yanking/pulling or hauling on them.

Now when I say that I am new to dressage, it means that I am not a student who has any medals or years of showing behind me. I want to think about maybe looking at the medal track but really want to enjoy my time in the saddle while learning. I want to reinforce my base of riding. I want to invest in my skills to bring the babies I work with to the next level. I would like to move up the levels because I am learning new skills and can prove that I can duplicate them over and over because I understand the foundation I will build.

Yes, I do not equate forward speed with impulsion. I would honestly say that the horse was not moving or engaging the hind end the way I envisioned a master to engage. The more contact I picked up and more I held, the happier the trainer was. She kept asking me for more and saying that without this the horse was lost because the energy had no where to go from the hind end. It was a windy day and the beastie was not thrilled there was another horse in the ring and was a little bit of a bucking bronc for the canter (OH thank you babies for all you have taught me). She never asked for more impulsion and kept asking for more and contact. I feel like in other disciplines my hands are educated. When she took the reins and showed me what she was asking for…I was in awe. :eek:

[EventingLady]

Tell your trainer your concerns. If she thinks that riding heavy in the hands/on the bit is normal, please find a new trainer. There are more dressage trainers than you’d think, who ride with heavy hands. Its shocking actually, it took me a few years to find the right trainer who actually rides with their seat and leg, instead of their hands. If your hands are sore, it is because the horse is not practicing self carriage or moving from their hind end. Its really really hard to get self carriage especially in a horse that is heavy in the mouth. But that is the basics of dressage. When you have proper self carriage, you should almost be able to ride your horse bridleless and get him round completely off your seat and leg.

[netg]

It tends to raise red flags for me about the trainers as it does for others.
However, some horses are exceptions. My trainer has an FEI horse who has been out of work, and upon getting going under saddle again, her default is use her under neck and pull against her rider. She would also do this for any rider who was new to it. My trainer’s instruction to the person leasing this mare was not let go with her hands, but use bending and medium trot (depending on if hind leg activity or flexion were most important in that moment) to get her round, not pull to get it - which would not have ended up getting her round successfully. This mare uses the same method to get her way in the herd, too, lifting head and pushing her neck out against the other horses to shove them out of her way. Her dam has the same tendencies. But both will get round and lighter as you get them using their bodies correctly. It may well be that you need a lightbulb in your riding to get that softness, not that this trainer makes all horses impossibly heavy.

I absolutely DO know of trainers who train for that heavy contact, though. It’s awful and I wouldn’t be able to do it. Literally, as my right elbow would get dislocated from that due to EDS.

[hoopoe]

even though you are not a beginning rider, you are a beginning dressage rider.

Your learning pyramid should be the same as that of a young horse. Being on the bit has nothing to do WITH the bit or a headset / frame. If this instructor was trying to get you to ride this horse like a second or third level horse, then this is not the learning situation for you…

I grew up riding hunters and the principles I learned did not hold up for riding dressage. You have to learn a new language and it takes time. A true schoolmaster should take you there and a good instructor should be able to do so. The contact felt in the hand should be light and balanced but you have to have the right language to get there

this sounds like a wrong situation. I would have started you with confirming proper impulsion from behind and upward and downward transitions into a soft hand. Progression to the proper use of the outside rein, proper circles and spirals and lateral movement. Then we can discuss more feeling in the hand

One of the movements in dressage tests is the Uberstreichen, The release of the rein contact showing that the horse travels in a natural frame independent, not created, from the reins . If your schoolmaster was really going along in a proper balanced frame, you should have not been lugged through the hands.