Breaking News - Big Brown's Slight Foot Injury?

[horselips]

Speaking of terminology

Some more confusing terminology.
(please correct me if I’m wrong - these were the terms some years ago, and they may have changed them)

In the Tb world there is no such thing as a ‘true black’ horse. True black in any breed is rare.

Agreed.
But; there is such a thing as a fading black horse. Some breeds sometimes call this color black-bay. It is a separate color from brown and a separate color from dark bay.
A fading black looks black and has no tan mealy color behind nostrils or flanks-belly area (that would make them brown). In the summer they fade to a purplish brown, except legs - examples of this would be Sunday Silence or War Emblem but not Ruffian, who was a dark brown. Seattle Slew was probably a dark bay or medium brown.

The Tb world does not recognize the ‘fading black’ gene, so all very dark horses are called dark bay or brown.

OK. I can accept that generalization.

I have a harder time with the fact that Sunday Silence was listed in the *DRF as a “dark black or brown” .

Dark black?!? Isn’t all black dark? That is as redundant as saying “light white”.

The way is should have been worded is: [B]dark: black or brown.

[/B]And can someone tell me why in the Tb world, chestnut-with-greying-gene horses are called roans?

They are not roans - they don’t have the roaning factor, they are greys

*However I see on pedigree query he is listed as drk b/brn.
Likewise, Heavenly Cause was listed as a roan when racing. She is correctly identified as a grey in pedigree query.

[Auventera_Two]

@Albion;3243081

Based on the early 19th century prints I have on my wall of the Darley & Godolphin Arabians, they bare as much resemblance to their modern, 21st century counterparts as TBs do - which is not much. Hardly “WIND UP TOY AYRABS” - they were late 17th and early 18th century equines for heaven’s sake. :rolleyes:

There are nice, solid working Arabians, and then there are the plastic barbie doll renditions that some breeders propogate.

[horselips]

@Auventera Two;3251461

There are nice, solid working Arabians, and then there are the plastic barbie doll renditions that some breeders propogate.

Yes. If someone tells me they’re “into Arabs”, I cautiously ask “what type?”.

I won’t have anything to do with halter/park people :no: :mad:

Endurance & sport types are wonderful animals.:yes:

Oh, and you could not convince me that some of these racing Arabs don’t have a Thoroughbred in the woodpile somewheres.

[Texarkana]

This thread wins the award for most tangents ever. :lol:

[Beezer]

[QUOTE=Auventera Two;3251419]
:rolleyes: Oh yes and shattered legs strewn on the track looks so much more appealing.[/QUOTE]

This could be the winner of “Most uneducated/uninformed/over-the-top ridiculous statement of the year,” and that’s saying something because we’ve had a lot of them. :rolleyes:

Newsflash: Arabian racehorses break down, too. So do Quarter Horse runners, Paints, Appys and Standardbreds. The reason you don’t see the same kind of uproar when that happens is because … hm … not very many people watch Arabian racing. And please educate yourself just a tiny bit: TB people are far, far more active in placing off-track horses in “civilian” homes than pretty much any other racing arm. But again, it’s a numbers thing.

If you want to take on a racing genre that really, really needs its head pulled out of its a$$, please check out Quarter Horse racing. Gives a whole new gruesome meaning to the term “catastrophic breakdown.”

And before you get on your “you just hate Arabs!” stamping-your-feet soapbox, save the effort. I’ve owned and ridden some very nice Arabs. They are just not horses that I’d chose to say, oh, run in a G-1 classic or over a grand prix course. Of course, I also wouldn’t ride a Freisian in an endurance race, but hey … that’s probably just me.

[Beezer]

[QUOTE=Texarkana;3251480]
This thread wins the award for most tangents ever. :lol:[/QUOTE]

You’re right there! :lol:

@Auventera Two;3251419

:rolleyes: Oh yes and shattered legs strewn on the track looks so much more appealing.

This could be the winner of “Most uneducated/uninformed/over-the-top ridiculous statement of the year,” and that’s saying something because we’ve had a lot of them.

Newsflash: Arabian racehorses break down, too. So do Quarter Horse runners, Paints, Appys and Standardbreds. The reason you don’t see the same kind of uproar when that happens is because … hm … not very many people watch Arabian racing. And please educate yourself just a tiny bit: TB people are far, far more active in placing off-track horses in “civilian” homes than pretty much any other racing arm. But again, it’s a numbers thing.

If you want to take on a racing genre that really, really needs its head pulled out of its a$$, please check out Quarter Horse racing. Gives a whole new gruesome meaning to the term “catastrophic breakdown.”

And before you get on your “you just hate Arabs!” stamping-your-feet soapbox, save the effort. I’ve owned and ridden some very nice Arabs. They are just not horses that I’d chose to say, oh, run in a G-1 classic or ride over a grand prix course. Of course, I also wouldn’t ride a Freisian in an endurance race, but hey … that’s probably just me.

[Chiniko]

[QUOTE=horselips;3251294]
Heroin. Heroin was very big at the track way back when. That’s the reason it’s called “horse”.
Or so I’ve read.
[/QUOTE]

People used to smoke up with a nervous horse on race day as well. Now 60cc of vodka in the pipe does pretty well.:eek:

[Larksmom]

an actual question about BB and his feet-not about racing Arabs!

I no longer have a horse, and when I did, she was very sound, so I do not know the answer to this. But are quarter cracks the sort of thing that can be inherited? Or is he just unlucky? I cannot believe it would be poor nutrition in a top three year old. I guess some horses do just have bad feet, but what causes it?

[Madeline]

@horselips;3251437

Some more confusing terminology.

Agreed.
But; there is such a thing as a fading black horse. Some breeds sometimes call this color black-bay. It is a separate color from brown and a separate color from dark bay.
A fading black looks black and has no tan mealy color behind nostrils or flanks-belly area (that would make them brown). In the summer they fade to a purplish brown, except legs - examples of this would be Sunday Silence or War Emblem but not Ruffian, who was a dark brown. Seattle Slew was probably a dark bay or medium brown.

The Tb world does not recognize the ‘fading black’ gene, so all very dark horses are called dark bay or brown.

OK. I can accept that generalization.

*However I see on pedigree query he is listed as drk b/brn.
Likewise, Heavenly Cause was listed as a roan when racing. She is correctly identified as a grey in pedigree query.

What you need to remember in these kinds of discussions, is that TB breeders and racing folk do not give a damn about color. It is even further down the scale than irrelevant. TB’s are a performance bred, not a color breed.

[Thomas_1]

@Beezer;3251915

Originally Posted by Auventera Two
Oh yes and shattered legs strewn on the track looks so much more appealing.
This could be the winner of “Most uneducated/uninformed/over-the-top ridiculous statement of the year,” and that’s saying something because we’ve had a lot of them.

I’m not inclined to agree with you but then I’ve probably read more of A2’s postings than you have.

[Chiniko]

I think it’s interesting, genetic vs nutrition, vs environment.
I think it is a bit of all three.
When I was first starting out in my equine adventure, I worked for a wonderful woman. She was a true horseperson, and I am thankful to have spent time under her wing. She always had a big barn 40 horses. She shared a BIG owner/breeder with another trainer on the grounds. He also had a full barn. A large majority of their horses came from this one individual. They had trained the grandmothers, mothers and siblings of these horses. They bred to their imported stallions and turned over the stallions when time was necessary. She the female trainer had one quarter crack the years I worked for her. And he was plagued by quarter cracks in his barn. All of the horses were related somehow, they had the same environment to grow up in, and the same nutritional plan and ate feed from the same provider pre racetrack. They all trained on the same dirt surface but had different trainers with different programs at the track. So why was he plagued and she was not? I think that it’s some genetics, BUT I think strongly that nutrition (ie supplementation) and hoof care, not just shoeing, but packing, cornucresine, reducine… etc. It was really interesting to watch these horses and how different they were in the individual trainer’s “hands.”

[horselips]

@Madeline;3252617

What you need to remember in these kinds of discussions, is that TB breeders and racing folk do not give a damn about color. It is even further down the scale than irrelevant. TB’s are a performance bred, not a color breed.

Who the hell ever said it was a color breed?!? :rolleyes:

For purposes of identification, it is better not to call a mare “him” or a chestnut “that pretty brown horse”. It makes one sound foolish, at they very least.

Terms are used for a reason. Only an idiot jumps in a discussion on something they know nothing about and begins blathering confusing terms.
Of course it is clear the world is full of idiots, and they are not only catered to, they are encouraged.

I, personally, would not walk into a room of astrophysicists and try to join in on a conversation they were having concerning their work.

I would like to hope that anyone going to the racetrack could at the very least read and comprehend a racing program. Perhaps I’m hoping for too much.

[Madeline]

@horselips;3253599

…
For purposes of identification, it is better not to call a mare “him” or a chestnut “that pretty brown horse”. It makes one sound foolish, at they very least.

Terms are used for a reason. Only an idiot jumps in a discussion on something they know nothing about and begins blathering confusing terms.
Of course it is clear the world is full of idiots, and they are not only catered to, they are encouraged.

I would like to hope that anyone going to the racetrack could at the very least read and comprehend a racing program. Perhaps I’m hoping for too much.

All in all, for racing purposes, all the ID you need is a tattoo. People who blather endlessly about the stupidity of the JC not “correctly” differentiating between grey and roan or dark bay and brown are missing the whole point of TB breeding.

I really like Big Brown. Who is bay.

[Pronzini]

@horselips;3251437

I have a harder time with the fact that Sunday Silence was listed in the *DRF as a “dark black or brown” .

Dark black?!? Isn’t all black dark? That is as redundant as saying “light white”.

The way is should have been worded is: dark: black or brown.

FWIW, I have DRF PPs on Sunday Silence. He’s actually identified as “dkbbr. c.” which translated means “dark bay or brown”.

“b” is always bay. The few times I’ve seen “black” in the DRF it’s shortened as “blk”

But there is a lot of truth to what Madeline is saying. In a sport where identification is so important that horse identifiers use tattoos on a breed that lists individual hair whorls on the papers issued by a registry that DNA tests every foal, there is just no need to use color to distinguish a horse other than redundantly. You just don’t need to delve much further than “dark bay or brown” and no one I’ve met at the track much cares. Color doesn’t help them run any faster.

[ArtilleryHill]

I can tell you with absolute certainty that the DRF never listed Sunday Silence as “dark black,” which isn’t even a Jockey Club color designation–thereby barring it from use in DRF’s past performances. He was listed by DRF as “dkbbr,” as someone mentioned earlier, which means “dark bay or brown.” Check your copy of the DRF book “Champions” to see for yourself.

The way it [I]should[I] be worded is exactly the way the DRF worded it. There is no designation for “dark: black or brown,” so that would be incorrect.

[Wellspotted]

In re the “it was ever thus” post …

Look at old pedigrees. In many cases, the sire’s name is given, likewise the grandsire, etc., and on back–all the stallions’ names are given. Often the dam and other female ancestors are listed as merely “Sister to ," "’s dam,” “_____ mare,” etc.

Currently, TB/racehorse people recognize the dam’s biological contributions to the foal, and say these are greater than the sire’s. Maybe these were recognized in the old days as well, but certainly the evidence implies that the dams themselves were not as valued as the sires. No, they just carried the foals for ca. 11 months, but their names are not recorded in all the pedigrees.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

On the subject of Half-Brothers, and seeing as this thread is now five parishes removed from it’s original intention…

The horse that just won the French Derby a couple of minutes ago, Vision d’Etat, has a 6yo half brother called Milan Deux Mille. The last race that Milan Deux Mille ran in???.. the Grand National in April!!
Now that has to be a record for a broodmare.