Just cocaine and god know’s what else.
I’m no fan of either raceday meds nor steroids, but don’t kid yourself that horses raced clean back then.
Beezer- true about the drug use but I do not think it was as acceptable nor as rampant as it is now…or I would like to believe so…
I would also like to believe, key word here, that the horses of old raced longer because they were sounder
The legality behind Curlin running is I do not think the courts want to deal with a syndicate on top of the already messed up ownership…I believe he cannot be sold yet either so syndication is out for now…I think I read that after the court released the desicion on settlement…
[QUOTE=Beezer;3249696]
They may not have had Lasix and steroids, but they had and used stuff that would make the legal drugs of today look like placebos. Be careful what you wish for. 
There is no “legal reason” for Curlin to still be running. 
He’s still running because his majority owner wants him to continue, and has the money to cover the horse’s insurance costs. ;)[/QUOTE]
I LOVE that Perfect Drift is still running. 9 years young and ran huge on the weekend.
I also think tha restricting things like lasix and hormones will just cause hungrey horsemen to get creative
Isn’t it more of a numbers game. There are more horses being bred to run than 100 years ago, therefore there are more breakdowns, more throw aways, and more issues. It would be interesting to see what the Jockey Club’s numbers were x years ago vs. say last year and the same for APHA and AQHA.
Originally posted by BridalBridle:
I don’t care what proper TB/racetrack protocol is…THEY SHARE 50% OF THE GENES SO 50% IS HALF…LIKE IN A DIVORCE …HALF OF YOUR ASSETS GO TO THE WIFE…LIKE HALF OF A DOZ IS 6. WHAT PART OF HALF DON’T YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND??? So OKEY DOKEY your horse is a half bro…damn it!!
I’m just a mere H/J but half is half.
I agree. I don’t care what current “proper” protocol is–current usage isn’t necessarily correct usage (e.g., “If only I would have known, I would have used correct terminology” … “I’m going to go home and lay down” … “I was just aghasted”). Just because people use certain terminology, that doesn’t make it correct. 
In my opinion, this current TB/racetrack use of half-brothers or -sisters to mean just horses out of one dam, but with different sires, is inaccurate and misleading. As you said, BridalBridle, “half is half.”
And there is a thread somewhere on COTH, Carol_okc, about the use of “own son.” It’s fairly informative. :winkgrin:
There is nothing current about it, it has ever thus been the correct terminology in the TB breeding and racing world. Feel free to use what ever you may please in whatever discipline it is that you and your horse chose to amuse yourselves in, but when on the RACING forum talking about RACE horses the correct terminology is as has been explained… half siblings are out of the same dam, by different sires.
[QUOTE=Wellspotted;3250310]
I agree. I don’t care what current “proper” protocol is–current usage isn’t necessarily correct usage (e.g., “If only I would have known, I would have used correct terminology” … “I’m going to go home and lay down” … “I was just aghasted”). Just because people use certain terminology, that doesn’t make it correct. [/QUOTE]
However, in racing it is correct.
Yabbut–I’ve been seeing “own son” on Irish sales catalogue pages. Wonder what they mean by it?
And do you suppose that Princess Haya’s new child isn’t a half to the other of Sheikh Mo’s get by his other wives because it has a different dam? And would TB terminology apply in a human harem situation?
BTW, I’ve come up with a short-hand term for my two who are the same age and by the same sire and have been raised together. I call them my not-twins, or they are not-sister, not-brother to each other.
What catalogue was that in?
Doubtfull, more likely you’ve seen the terms “own sister” and “own brother” which are same thing as full bother/sister.
And do you suppose that Princess Haya’s new child isn’t a half to the other of Sheikh Mo’s get by his other wives because it has a different dam? And would TB terminology apply in a human harem situation?
Since people seem to be having a hard time with this terminology, I’ve developed a simple two-step system which can be used to determine when the terms “half-brother” and “half-sister” are used correctly.
It goes like this…
Step One: Are the half-siblings in question a) horses or b) another animal?
If the answer to this is “a”, then proceed to Step Two. If the answer is “b”, then call them whatever you bleeding-well like.
Step Two: Are the half-siblings in question a) TBs or b) some other kind of equine?
If the answer is “a”, then they are only half siblings if they are out of the same dam. If the answer is “b”, then call them whatever you bleeding well like.
So, let’s put this into practice here… in the above example about the offspring of Sheik Mo and Princess Haya,
Step One: Are the half-siblings in question a) horses or b) another animal?
The answer being of course “B”, so ergo we can call them whatever we like.
Here’s another example, Dobbin the Cyldesdale/QH/Fallabella cross…
Step One: Are the half-siblings in question a) horses or b) another animal?
The answer is “A”, so we proceed to Step Two…
Step Two: Are the half-siblings in question a) TBs or b) some other kind of equine?
The answer is “b”, so we can call them whatever the hell we please.
Pretty easy, eh?
[QUOTE=ivy62;3249646]
. They did not use Lasix, steroids etc…so BIG difference in my book…
JMHO[/QUOTE]
Actually, I recommend you check out some books on horses of other eras. They used a LOT of stuff. The only difference with today was that they didn’t have to be as creative. See: Sir Barton for starters.
when in Rome…
I understand they did lots of things back when but was it legal? I do not know…I just wish horses that are ABLE to run without the use of performance enhancing drugs could do so and that race horse owners would realize that they may be able to make money with another profession even while they own them…Wasn’t Idle Dice a race track throw away! He certaily did well…and some people still show stallions ie: Wind Fall 2 and Popeye K…so stud fees are possible and AI is much easier…
JMHO
[QUOTE=Wellspotted;3250310]
. . . . In my opinion, this current TB/racetrack use of half-brothers or -sisters to mean just horses out of one dam, but with different sires, is inaccurate and misleading. As you said, BridalBridle, “half is half.” . . . . [/QUOTE]
NO. Half is NOT half. The contributions of the dam & sire to the foal are distinctly different & very, very important!!
FIRST, only the sire can contribution the necessary X or Y chromosome that determines the sex of the offspring. The dam can contribute an X & only an X. The X from the stallion comes only from his dam & the Y from the stallion comes only from his sire so this is a distinct & direct heritage. The mare’s X that she contributes to the foal could have come from her dam or from her sire. (This fact is the source of great “broodmare sires”. When a stallion, such as Secretariat, contributes an X with particularly good genes to his daughters, then half of her sons & daughters will get that particular X.)
SECOND, the dam contributes (via the egg or ovum) the cytoplasm & cytoplasmic organelles. The sire contributes the sperm, which is basically a package of chromosomes wrapped in a cell membrane. The organelles in the cytoplasm are very important - for example, the mitochondria (the “powerhouses” of the cell) all come from the dam & only the dam. The mitochondria have their own chromosomal makeup & can be used to trace the damline accurately.
THIRD, the dam carries the developing foal within her body for almost a full year (or sometimes more than a full year). Then, following birth, she cares for & nourishes the foal (usually, the exception being nurse mares). All that has happened to a mare prior to her pregnancy influences the course & outcome of the pregnancy. For example, her own nutrition as a foal & young horse influences how her body copes with the pregnancy, same with possible exposure to toxins or hormones, etc. Her prior life influences her “motherliness” as well as her ability to nourish the growing foal after birth.
In no way do the sire & dam each contribute half to the foal. Please use the terminology that lets each of us understand the unique heritage of the horse you are referring to.
With that irrefutable logic, stallion owners should pay the mare owners for the priviledge of allowing their horse’s genetic contribution an opportunity to express itself.
Methinks some of this attitude traces to the time long before we had a clue about DNA, or even ova. ‘Planting his seed’ is far removed from reality…
LMAO!
Now that’s one I will remember to use next time someone says it. Thanks for the great line. :lol:
Heroin. Heroin was very big at the track way back when. That’s the reason it’s called “horse”.
Or so I’ve read.
[QUOTE=miss_critic;3240227]
In addition to what Texarkana was saying, it would be nice to see more people who are breeders and racing the same horses-to get away from breeding for sales. Maybe there would be more accountability? But not to Arabs! AHHH
Horses are just a complicated animals. I know horses who get quarter cracks or what have you and they don’t do a fraction of what a race horse does. Makes you appreciate these race horses all the more.[/QUOTE]
Well, for what it’s worth, I had (long since lost, sadly) a book published by the Jockey Club that was a list of registered TB sires. It ran from the origins of the breed until, I think, the early 50s. As recently as the 1920’s, a couple of Arabians were listed. So…it is NOT a totally unreasonable proposition, though I agree it is unlikely to happen these days. While my mount of choice is the Appaloosa (I’ve had four: Two foundation, one race bred with Man O’War lines, and now - I can’t believe I’m saying this - a half-Arabian Appy. ) Of those four, guess which one had the poorest feet? Yup. The race-bred one that was over 50% TB. Sigh. Never had any major foot problems with him, beyond difficulty keeping shoes on, though (thin wall, smallish feet for his size - 16.2). The Arab cross? He goes barefoot.
As for the “I’d rather race/train goats…” or whatever: They DO race Arabians and their trainers seem to be able to cope… I love all horses, and while a purebred Arabian would not be my choice of mount, that is, for me, more of size issue than anything else. I like a bigger horse. My Arab cross is around 16.2 at 4 and stll growing. (Yikes!)
Elementary, my dear Watson! And exactly right.
Using the incorrect terminology makes an individual look ridiculous.
:rolleyes: Oh yes and shattered legs strewn on the track looks so much more appealing.
EXACTLY. Arabians don’t look or run like Thoroughbreds, but I say any horse that can travel for 13 hours and cover 100 miles and come back in 3 weeks and do it again, and again, and again, and again and rack up 5,000 or 10,000 lifetime race miles…deserves a little bit of respect. And this of course, for many endurance horses, is after they had a career in flat track racing. How many TBs could do that? I love TBs, and I love Arabs. They’re different, but each deserves the same token of respect.
