[QUOTE=BeeHoney;7919235]
Like others, I would recommend against breeding this mare. Unless the mare can talk, I don’t think you have definitive proof of why she is struggling with this issue. Plenty of horses endure bad training and are able to physically and mentally get past it without much trouble. In my mind, your mare either has a physical or mental issue that makes it harder for her to get past it (or has developed a physical/mental issue unrelated to either the bad training or your excellent care). Either way, those aren’t traits you want to pass on. If a horse can’t relax and work comfortably and be a productive riding horse even after all the things you are doing + the reserpine…well, that might not be a horse you want to reproduce.
In todays climate–a lot of amateur riders who are busy with their careers and families, etc.–I would be very hesitant to breed a horse with a less forgiving personality because I think there is a very limited market for horses in that category. (And as an aside, how easy a horse is for the initial breaking does not necessarily correlate to rideability.)
Be patient–down the road if you get this figured out satisfactorily then that it is the time to breed her. Speaking from experience, I can say that breeding is a huge investment and there’s already enough risk without breeding a horse with a known issue. Please don’t take this hard, I think most people on the forum are trying to help you not make the same mistakes that we’ve made in the past.
As far as whether breeding her would have an effect on her personality–yes, while in foal broodmares tend to be quieter. But, as soon as they have delivered and are cycling again, their personality goes back to normal. Now, if there is a pain issue causing the bad behavior than a year long “layup” for breeding might indeed be helpful. And as others have said, a year of being turned out might be mentally beneficial for some horses.[/QUOTE]
If the horse was, in fact, psycho… she would be psycho all the time. She is not.
If it were my training causing the issue, she would be getting worse instead of better. This is just the point in which she has plateaued, where she still won’t quite use her back all the way. It’s like my leg and rein aids are broken but she responds beautifully to seat.
As for any obscure issues, it’s possible, but she really had a pretty easy life except for the 6 months of terrible training. But that was the ONLY training she really had.
I’m also not comparing it to just her initial braking but to how she handled work in general as a youngster before she was sent to the trainer.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7919372]I too would not breed her but might chuck her in a field for a year. Breeding will not improve her. I’ve had several horses who came from rough training situations. None remained so difficult who didn’t have some underlying issue. Some had kissing spine. Some horses with even mild KS can’t tolerate you sitting on them whereas other are fine. One had arthritis in their neck. Another has hind suspensory issues. And it took several very good vets to find the issues. And some of those soundness issues are things I would not want to breed on.
To me, this mare doesn’t want the job you are asking of her. I would either do more work to find out what is the pain issue or change the way I ride her and see if there is a different job she may like. I’ve had a few that did NOT want to do dressage but were very happy as show jumpers and prefered for a rider to stay off their back.
Given all you have done…I’d find this mare a different job and would not breed her because she either has a soundness issue or doesn’t want to do the job You want of her and would have concerns that she would produce offspring just like her.[/QUOTE]
She hasn’t yet found a job to find another one. She can’t possibly be a jumper if she won’t relax and use her hind end. I’m not ON her back yet.
It is probably not KS as her canter is her stronger gait. She also would be a bad candidate for bilateral hind suspensories as she has a large overtrack.
I understand that she could be be in pain, and she has quite a bit of general soreness from muscle pain around her SI.
Thank you for answering my question. That’s all I really wanted.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7919591]Personally, this sounds like a pain issue to me. And if it’s a pinched nerve (VERY difficult to diagnosis) just standing around in a pasture is not likely to heal it.
My vote is that pain is causing tension, not the other way around. Just like some people, some horses can just go CRAZY when they are hurting. They simply cannot tolerate it.
If the “bad training” was some 2 yrs ago and was relatively brief, then assuming she is getting “good training” now (and no offense to the OP, but maybe that is part of the problem), meaning work that suit her physical ability and advances it abit each day…then she shouldn’t be displaying such profound behavior.
I think we put alot more emphasis on thinking a horse’s resistance is mental, when in fact MOST horses are able to put many things behind them fairly easily. They don’t live in the past…that’s a people thing.
And I know the OP will say – “oh, I’ve had her checked by________ and she’s fine.” Well, I’ve known at least 3 cases where horses were check multiple times by top vets (think UC Davis for example) who declared them fine. Then later (when the behavior continues)…in one case 2 YEARS later, the source of pain was finally discovered.
As for breeding her to calm her down; look at the actual physical process. Yes, there are hormones at play during pregnancy & early lactation that MIGHT calm her down (and might make her worse :winkgrin:), but once the foal is weaned those influences are gone.
Why would you think these changes (should they occur) would be permanent in any way? It’s not like the actual process of having a foal changes their outlook on life…horses don’t work like that.
Instead, it’s like others have noted: it was tincture of time that caused the maturity…NOT spitting out a foal.
Personally, I would have her checked out by SEVERAL top vets & chiropractors, have her scoped and see what sort of ulcer action is going on, and let her spend 90-120 days with the best trainer you can find/afford who is known to have a knack with super sensitive horses…then see where you are at.
And, as a breeder, I can tell you that sometimes genetics do weird things. I have a stallion son who I keep telling people has a brain tumor…'cause both his sire & his dam were hot and reactive…and he’s a total pussy cat. STILL can’t figure out where his personality came from (although thrilled that it is the way it is).
Just like our personalities are not fully formed as children, so with horses.[/QUOTE]
It could be pain, but it’s not pain related to any specific injury or degenerative disease. She flexed, jogged, and palpated clean. The saddle we are using fits with a thinline and shims (as cleared by vet/chiro and saddle fitter) and her saddle is in the process of a lengthy warranty issue but has not been used on her recently.
She does come from some reactive lines, I’m aware that she should “get over it” but I’m also aware that she is the type that needs to be asked to “rise to the occasion” and not “pushed”. If she is “pushed” she’ll get tense and quit, if you encourage her into “rising to the occasion” she remembers and can use it as a building block for next time. But she’s also the super smart type that will get bored easily.
I do understand that my horse is probably bored of going around in circles (I know I am), but she will actually damage herself jumping before she is properly muscled. I’m not asking her to do high level work (again, why she is bored).
That’s a slim possibility, but could be worth a look if she continues despite the reserpine.
[QUOTE=rodawn;7920237]Respectfully, you came on here and asked for experienced breeders’ opinions. Some good and very experienced breeders have come on here and given you their opinions - and overwhelmingly the answer has been that breeding this mare will not solve the problem you are describing and most have given you the opinion that this is not the kind of mare to breed. It always puzzles me when people ask for advice and then get offended when the advice isn’t what they want to hear.
I am inclined to agree with the good folks on this board and add my 30 some years to this and state this is not a mare to breed. The thing about breeding a mare to calm her down is a MYTH, pure and simple. There’s the direct answer to your direct question.
Also, the comment put forward here that only the very best mares with the very best of traits, temperament, personality, reactivity and reactions, conformation, gaits, and athletic abilities are the ones to breed is the best piece of advice anyone could ever give. You also only want to breed mares who have the best relationship with humans. Based on your descriptions of this mare, she does not meet up with the full criteria. And this is alright, because most mares do not meet the breeding criteria and not meeting that criteria does not make the horse, or your mare, a bad horse! Instead I would suggest you get some therapists on board working on your mare - some good quality massage therapy might do her back wonders, for example.
Mares teach their behavior to their foals. If they are tense around people, the foal will pick up on that. If she has trust issues due to her abuse history, the foal will pick up on that and copy it. Even fully people-trusting mares become watchful and protective of their newborns. A distrustful mare could become downright dangerous.
Based on your responses to all of the various pieces of good and sound advice that has been given on this thread, it appears you have your mind made up. So now all that is left to do is go off and do what you want to do.
Good luck and we wish you all the best.[/QUOTE]
I do appreciate all of the experienced breeders’ opinions but I wish they would keep their training opinions to themselves. I came here in search of their thoughts and experiences on the old adage that breeding a mare will calm her down and instead I’m getting told that maybe I should take more lessons.
Whether or not I am disclosing everything about my horse is of my own discretion and having her attacked and called crazy is also uncalled for. She is not crazy, she simply has a bit of baggage. I don’t hold back when I describe her, if anything, I tend to make her sound worse than she is (usually).
She is fairly workmanlike and forward-going and has a generally happy expression. She just won’t relax her back and lift and push into the bridle. She tries hard and, like most reactive horses, her resistance is simply more tension (although she doesn’t have any explosive habits).
