[QUOTE=yourcolorfuladdiction;7920579]
If the horse was, in fact, psycho… she would be psycho all the time. She is not.
If it were my training causing the issue, she would be getting worse instead of better.
I understand that she could be be in pain, and she has quite a bit of general soreness from muscle pain around her SI.
I do understand that my horse is probably bored of going around in circles (I know I am), but she will actually damage herself jumping before she is properly muscled. I’m not asking her to do high level work (again, why she is bored).
That’s a slim possibility, but could be worth a look if she continues despite the reserpine.
I do appreciate all of the experienced breeders’ opinions but I wish they would keep their training opinions to themselves.
She just won’t relax her back and lift and push into the bridle. She tries hard and, like most reactive horses, her resistance is simply more tension (although she doesn’t have any explosive habits).[/QUOTE]
Even psychotics aren’t psychotic all the time. Don’t expect it of horses either.
You seem really sensitive about your training ability, which is always a red flag. Maybe your training is simply not what this mare needs. Surely you can consider this possibility?
For instance, if you just keep going around in circles in an arena and nothing changes…well, what is that old saying about the definition of insanity?
Obviously nothing you’ve tried in terms of “training” has helped. If the mare does not have a chronic, yet undiscovered source of discomfort (which is my belief) then she needs to be taught to relax. YOu are not able to get her to do that.
As far as being “checked out”, I’d try afew more vets and let them have a shot. This summer I went through a hellish PPE (I was the seller), where the buyer was telling me how wonderful and insightful HER vet was.
Well, when the PPE was done by a vet in our area (a retired former head of orthopedics at a major university vet school), with full flexions, a zillion x-rays and the whole shebang, that vet said he could not find ONE SINGLE THING wrong with the horses. I was thrilled and proud and ready for Buyer to send the check.
Then HER vet pronounced in alarm after seeing the rads that the mare had arthritis is BOTH hocks!! Much drama insued, till Buyer finally sent the rads to 2 other vets (both of whom knew the rep of the vet who did the PPE); final judgement: her brilliant vet apparently did not recognize the appearance of artifact in films!!!:eek:
All vets/chiros etc. can make mistakes too.
You are going to do what you want, but anyone who is this defensive about even considering the possibility that he/she might not be able to give a specific horse what they need in terms of rehab/training is (to me) a red flag.
All the trainers/riders I respect (in ALL the disciplines) will be the first ones to admit they sometimes come up short and they are still learning their entire Life. The ones who figure they know all the answers scare the poop o/o me.
You’ve been messing with this mare for how long now? 1-2 yrs? And you aren’t seeing much progress.
Why on earth would you breed a horse that according to you has hind end soreness when not even in hard work? Until you know why she has pain I would never breed. Soundness is one of the most important traits of a sport horse. I want to know that her issues are not genetic or reflective of a weakness she may pass on OR an issue that may make having a foal difficult or painful.
From what you described she has an issue and you have not gotten it diagnosed. Without a back xray, you can’t know whether or not she has KS. Mine were all sound with it. Just had what looked like attitude issues undersaddle. Same with the hind suspensory. Two horses both who over tracked but still had inflammation that was only detected with an ultrasound. We blocked and their push and movement improved but they were never short or lame behind.
An SI injury can be significant. Again I would want to diagnose so I could treat her for it. Many take injections and a full year of rehab to recover and you need to be working her in a manner not to be causing more damage. Then I would want to see if she does heal and hold up to work before breeding.
You can decide not to spend the money to diagnose her but I personally would not breed her without knowing what is wrong.
Another point to consider - if she has severe enough pain that makes riding problematic for her, then carrying a full-term pregnancy is going to be pure torture for her.
The mares get REALLY heavy through the belly and this weight pulls on their spine - the skeleton, muscles, and ligaments ALL get pulled on. If there are back issues or hindquarter issues beforehand, the pain will be just pure misery for her.
Am I misunderstanding one of your posts…You are only longeing her now and not riding her, is that correct? (Your comment about only going in circles).
If that’s the case, then I would try riding her even going so far as to use a hackamore in case it is a bit issue (or fear of stretching into the bit due to prior training), and see if you are able to acclimate her to learn what your leg means (not just speed, but bend, moving from behind).
If it is a strength issue, then trot poles (again maybe in a hackamore to avoid the bit issue), and walking and trotting up hills could help. If you don’t want to be on her back, long-lining all over the place, trails, etc might help her build strength as well as relax, if the arena holds bad associations for her.
I would get some intensive diagnostics if possible to figure out why she has pain. You said she had 2 yrs off, so it shouldn’t be soreness. If it is so fleeting that vets can’t determine it, and you can’t do diagnostics, then I would definitely try something different than going in circles. (If it were weak stifles for instance, circles are the last thing you would want to do.). I would go to long-lining on hills, over trot poles, or riding in a hackamore.
I’d probably also take a serious look at the shoeing. I know you don’t feel that is an issue, but I would have a different top farrier evaluate it. I’ve known some people who think their farrier is fantastic, and then it turns out that they have high/low feet, or the angles are off, causing soreness.
Have you ruled out PSSM?
Personally, I wouldn’t breed her, since I wouldn’t want another just like her. Because you don’t know if her physical problems are genetic or mental weaknesses, and mares can pass on temperament to their babies. Plus I believe in breeding the best to the best, and she is untested/unproven and right now is lacking in several pretty important areas (temperament, rideability, movement, soundness). She may end up a nice horse if you get the issues fixed, but there are thousands of nice weanlings/yearlings/and 2 yr olds without the issues that you risk passing on.
Two suggestions: Have you tried a course of pain killer? As an experiment, IV banamine for a week, one hour before you ride. If it is a pain issue, that should tell you one way or another. Also…have you ever heard of marbling? Mimic pregnancy. Some people claim it works. I would try those two things before breeding. People have been quite negative but my own views on this have mellowed with age, as long as you accept responsibility for whatever the result is. After one foal, take your time (as in at least a couple of years) to evaluate the result before deciding to breed her again.
[QUOTE=Mozart;7923315]
. People have been quite negative but my own views on this have mellowed with age, as long as you accept responsibility for whatever the result is. After one foal, take your time (as in at least a couple of years) to evaluate the result before deciding to breed her again.[/QUOTE]
I’m a bit more concerned with causing the mare more pain with the pregnancy/foaling if I don’t know what is wrong with her. Especially if there is a pelvis issue or some soft tissue injury that may worsen.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7923398]
I’m a bit more concerned with causing the mare more pain with the pregnancy/foaling if I don’t know what is wrong with her. Especially if there is a pelvis issue or some soft tissue injury that may worsen.[/QUOTE] I don’t disagree. Hence my suggestion of IV banamine pre-riding to really decide if it is pain or temperament.
I’m fairly acutely aware of that. Having ridden a horse that would up and lose his bananas and had injured himself and others on multiple occasions.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7920759]You seem really sensitive about your training ability, which is always a red flag. Maybe your training is simply not what this mare needs. Surely you can consider this possibility?
[/quote]
I have, but having been the only one to be able to get on this horse and not be combative with her and still get things done; I’m doing better than most.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7920759]For instance, if you just keep going around in circles in an arena and nothing changes…well, what is that old saying about the definition of insanity?
[/quote]
Do you think I really don’t try new/different things? Do you think I really just go around in circles? How dumb do you think I am? The horse can walk 1/4 pirouette on the square, can shoulder-in, can legyeild from centerline, can legyeild on the circle, is working on her legyeild down the rail, can do single loops, can do serpentines, can do figure 8’s, and can do stretch circles at all gaits. As she seems to get “bored” I try and introduce something new but fairly basic for her to learn and work on but I never want her to feel like she is being drilled.
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7920759]Obviously nothing you’ve tried in terms of “training” has helped. If the mare does not have a chronic, yet undiscovered source of discomfort (which is my belief) then she needs to be taught to relax. YOu are not able to get her to do that.
As far as being “checked out”, I’d try afew more vets and let them have a shot. This summer I went through a hellish PPE (I was the seller), where the buyer was telling me how wonderful and insightful HER vet was.
Well, when the PPE was done by a vet in our area (a retired former head of orthopedics at a major university vet school), with full flexions, a zillion x-rays and the whole shebang, that vet said he could not find ONE SINGLE THING wrong with the horses. I was thrilled and proud and ready for Buyer to send the check.
Then HER vet pronounced in alarm after seeing the rads that the mare had arthritis is BOTH hocks!! Much drama insued, till Buyer finally sent the rads to 2 other vets (both of whom knew the rep of the vet who did the PPE); final judgement: her brilliant vet apparently did not recognize the appearance of artifact in films!!!:eek:
[/quote]
So how many vets do you think I need to have look at her before you think she is okay? And because one incompetent vet almost screwed up a sale for you, you assume my vet is incompetent?
[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7920759]All vets/chiros etc. can make mistakes too.
You are going to do what you want, but anyone who is this defensive about even considering the possibility that he/she might not be able to give a specific horse what they need in terms of rehab/training is (to me) a red flag.
All the trainers/riders I respect (in ALL the disciplines) will be the first ones to admit they sometimes come up short and they are still learning their entire Life. The ones who figure they know all the answers scare the poop o/o me.
You’ve been messing with this mare for how long now? 1-2 yrs? And you aren’t seeing much progress.
You do the math.[/QUOTE]
I never said I hadn’t made any improvement. I said I had plateaued. She had improved by leaps and bounds but in this ONE LITTLE AREA she hasn’t met the mark. This little area from behind the shoulder over the croup, it just holds more tension that I would like.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7920827]Why on earth would you breed a horse that according to you has hind end soreness when not even in hard work? Until you know why she has pain I would never breed. Soundness is one of the most important traits of a sport horse. I want to know that her issues are not genetic or reflective of a weakness she may pass on OR an issue that may make having a foal difficult or painful.
From what you described she has an issue and you have not gotten it diagnosed. Without a back xray, you can’t know whether or not she has KS. Mine were all sound with it. Just had what looked like attitude issues undersaddle. Same with the hind suspensory. Two horses both who over tracked but still had inflammation that was only detected with an ultrasound. We blocked and their push and movement improved but they were never short or lame behind.
An SI injury can be significant. Again I would want to diagnose so I could treat her for it. Many take injections and a full year of rehab to recover and you need to be working her in a manner not to be causing more damage. Then I would want to see if she does heal and hold up to work before breeding.
You can decide not to spend the money to diagnose her but I personally would not breed her without knowing what is wrong.[/QUOTE]
Honestly, as my vet was specifically examining her for either an SI injury, KS, or other back or hock injury. They were ruled out. I’m not saying a hind suspensory is impossible, but it’s not probable. Hear hoofbeats think horses. She’s not arthritic, she’s just tight in her muscles.
[QUOTE=rodawn;7921520]Another point to consider - if she has severe enough pain that makes riding problematic for her, then carrying a full-term pregnancy is going to be pure torture for her.
The mares get REALLY heavy through the belly and this weight pulls on their spine - the skeleton, muscles, and ligaments ALL get pulled on. If there are back issues or hindquarter issues beforehand, the pain will be just pure misery for her.[/QUOTE]
It’s muscular from tension, caused by arthritis or degenerative joint disease.
[QUOTE=jetsmom;7922395]Am I misunderstanding one of your posts…You are only longeing her now and not riding her, is that correct? (Your comment about only going in circles).
If that’s the case, then I would try riding her even going so far as to use a hackamore in case it is a bit issue (or fear of stretching into the bit due to prior training), and see if you are able to acclimate her to learn what your leg means (not just speed, but bend, moving from behind).
If it is a strength issue, then trot poles (again maybe in a hackamore to avoid the bit issue), and walking and trotting up hills could help. If you don’t want to be on her back, long-lining all over the place, trails, etc might help her build strength as well as relax, if the arena holds bad associations for her.
I would get some intensive diagnostics if possible to figure out why she has pain. You said she had 2 yrs off, so it shouldn’t be soreness. If it is so fleeting that vets can’t determine it, and you can’t do diagnostics, then I would definitely try something different than going in circles. (If it were weak stifles for instance, circles are the last thing you would want to do.). I would go to long-lining on hills, over trot poles, or riding in a hackamore.
[/quote]
The circles comment was more of a jab at dressage, as this horse isn’t going to be jumping anything anytime soon (not without relaxation and contact on the bit).
[QUOTE=jetsmom;7922395]I’d probably also take a serious look at the shoeing. I know you don’t feel that is an issue, but I would have a different top farrier evaluate it. I’ve known some people who think their farrier is fantastic, and then it turns out that they have high/low feet, or the angles are off, causing soreness.
[/quote]
Having had my first horse made lame with terrible shoeing, I’m aware of just what bad farrier work can do. Fortunately for myself, Dr. Mansmann (one of the leading experts on equine podiatry) is right down the road, so “bad farriers” don’t actually exist around here.
[QUOTE=jetsmom;7922395]Have you ruled out PSSM?
Personally, I wouldn’t breed her, since I wouldn’t want another just like her. Because you don’t know if her physical problems are genetic or mental weaknesses, and mares can pass on temperament to their babies. Plus I believe in breeding the best to the best, and she is untested/unproven and right now is lacking in several pretty important areas (temperament, rideability, movement, soundness). She may end up a nice horse if you get the issues fixed, but there are thousands of nice weanlings/yearlings/and 2 yr olds without the issues that you risk passing on.[/QUOTE]
Haven’t ruled out PSSM, but she needs to have a pony-steak removed and I haven’t exactly decided since other aspects of her health are still fairly easy to meet (feed).
She has been on both methocarbamol and equioxx (at separate times both at least a week). Equioxx did nothing, Methocarbamol helped but is not a sustainable option.
I haven’t tried marbling, it was going to be injectable regumate in the spring, if anything, unless the vet thinks she is a good candidate for marbling.
PSSM has not been ruled out, I assume given her lineage (almost half TB), she would need to have a steak removed.
I haven’t had the marbling work. Just try the Regumate although in my experience the injectable isn’t quite as effective as daily oral. You can do different amounts with the injections though and what works best varies from mare to mare. I’ve had two competition mares on it. One was fine with once a month injecting and the other (who had tension) needed once a week. It still doesn’t get rid of her tension but she gets very sore in the back when cycling and it relieves that issue.
Breeding will not fix her though if your issue is tension. Either there is something physical that may or may not be treatable or she is just a tense horse. If dressage is what you want to do then I certainly would not breed her as IME, the mare CAN pass that tendency for tension. If she does not have a physical issue I WOULD see what she thinks of jumping (with the right type of rider). As an event rider, many of my horses have issues with tension on the flat but LOVE to jump. I used to joke about my one UL horse that I needed to warm him up for his dressage test by jumping. It is not uncommon. A lot of super hot and sensitive horses are quite happy as show jumpers too.
Actually as a pretty-much lifelong horse person and a nurse for the last 25 years I’ve know ALOT of vets (and doctors) to get things wrong or just miss stuff. Good vets/docs. I won’t bore you with all the stories.
Just to say this does not make them “incompetent”; did makes them human.
Anyway, you obviously aren’t really interested in the actual solutions being offered here, so you do what you want to.
However to answer your original question: No, breeding this mare will not change or fix her problem. And that is pretty much a guarantee. Since you have such confidence in your vet, why not ask him/her?
But in my experience, what ever benefits come from giving a mare about 1.5yrs to just hang out in the pasture and be given optimum care in terms of feeding, etc. – they don’t come from the biological process of being pregnant & raising a foal.
They come from the time off, the natural maturity that comes from the 1.5 yrs & all the “extra stuff” you do for a broodie.
Have you tried taking her out and trail riding her/hilltopping/hunter pace or something besides arena work? Some horses simply hate ring work/dressage. Find something she enjoys and see if she relaxes.
To answer your original question, IME it’s a myth. I have a very hot, sensitive mare who had a long and successful 1.4-1.5m jumper career. After retiring from her show career in her mid-teens, she had four foals. She is now a very hot, sensitive fully retired mare in her twenties.
[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;7926064]
Breeding will not fix her though if your issue is tension. Either there is something physical that may or may not be treatable or she is just a tense horse. If dressage is what you want to do then I certainly would not breed her as IME, the mare CAN pass that tendency for tension. If she does not have a physical issue I WOULD see what she thinks of jumping (with the right type of rider). As an event rider, many of my horses have issues with tension on the flat but LOVE to jump. I used to joke about my one UL horse that I needed to warm him up for his dressage test by jumping. It is not uncommon. A lot of super hot and sensitive horses are quite happy as show jumpers too.[/QUOTE]
I think this advice is well worth considering. My mare was very well schooled on the flat, but it had to be done with extreme tact and brevity. Over fences, she was all business and loved her job. If she had been in the program you describe, she most likely would have never had any type of successful show career.
The advice that made it work: " Stop trying to change her and learn to ride her".
This was given after a year or two of focusing on getting her to relax. Some horses are tense. Finding a job she likes might be a kinder option.
FWIW, schooling her over small jumps and grids isn’t any more demanding physically than the Dressage movements you say she is doing.
She sounds a lot like a square peg being forced into a round hole.
PSSM has not been ruled out, I assume given her lineage (almost half TB), she would need to have a steak removed.[/QUOTE] Okay, maybe Recurrent Exertional Rhabdomylosis then? Can’t hurt to do the low starch, high fat diet and see if it works. I would still try the IV banamine. What if it is not muscular and muscle tension is a symptom, not the source? What if the issue has to do with her ovaries? Cysts, large painful follicles, etc. Also, you have to decide why you want to breed. If it is just to chill out this mare, then yes, I think it is a myth. Don’t bother. I think the mares that calmed down post breeding would have calmed down anyway with age. If you want to salvage something because this mare has good qualities, well, that might work, sometimes you get an improved offspring, sometimes you get a carbon copy of the mare. You roll the dice, you take your chances. I still would not make the decision to breed until you had absolutely ruled out a fixable physical issue, or a physical issue that would not be a bar to pregnancy. Also, is your only opposition to Regumate that it would be fed by teenage girls? There has to be solution to that. Supply them with examination gloves? Pre-packaged feeds with Regumate already added? Regumate predispensed in little travel sized bottles that just has to be poured on the feed? While wearing gloves?
Having re-read your posts I have two more comments. You mentioned that the vet does not think it is a cyst because of the location of the pain. Has she actually been ultrasounded? You may be surprised at what you find. My vet also says “when you hear hoofbeats, think horse, not zebra” but ime, different vets think of different kinds of horses… this is not a comment on competence, but rather that all professionals see things a bit differently. A good thing, I think. Also, I think the “square peg round hole” proponents make a very good point. A few gymnastics will not hurt her, give it a try. Or even free jumping. She will tell you quite plainly if that is more to her liking. Being unhappy in their work makes some horses very tense, even if the nature of the work should be relaxing and non stressful.
