Breed or buy?

Buy.

I have friends that are phenomenal breeders but the heartache they go through to get a foal on the ground is gut wrenching at times. I couldn’t do it.

8 Likes

Be honest with yourself. You would not even go look at a foal Out of a cute appendix type mare if you were shopping.
Do you want a high level performance horse? You don’t have one in her, why do you feel she would produce one? That isn’t how breeding works. People hope to God they get something “good”, by breeding Excellent to another excellent.

Do not breed your older mare. This is an emotional reaction. Put that aside. Open your eyes and your options and buy a wonderful baby horse.

23 Likes

Have you approached the breeder of the young horse you lost about the possibility of a “custom” full sibling? Or even buying the dam after she is confirmed in foal to Emerald? This would give you the best chance of ending up with a foal similar to the filly you lost. There is no guarantee, of course, but it would be a way to hedge your bets towards getting something you really like.

Your mare is very cute, but breeding 20+ year old maidens, even via ET, is not for the faint of heart. And a foal out of her will likely be a very different type from the filly you lost.

12 Likes

If your budget is reasonable I can find you ten of those easily. One comes to mind right off the bat and I haven’t even done a search. Legit Grand Prix potential

18 Likes

I was about to suggest this… if they are getting out of breeding and don’t want the trouble of going through a pregnancy all the way to foaling again… could you buy the dam, get a breeding lease on her, or use the recip mare with an embryo from her instead of your mare?

6 Likes

Buy. The problem with breeding is you have absolutely no guarantee of getting what you statistically “think” you should get. My mare’s dam has had 6 foals. One was an off breedx so not a good comparison but is still 16’3+. The other 4 are all 16’3+ (and warmblood to warmblood). By all accounts my mare should have been reasonably large (and I bought her with that expectation). The reality? She’s a shrimp. This is fine for me since I have no grand aspirations or goals. You however, are coming into this with a specific checklist you want in your results.

you have no guarantees with breeding. You are more likely to certainly get what you want via shopping and being diligent than you are with breeding. You cannot guarantee that the semen will work (the first, second, or even fifth time round). If doing IVF, you have no guarantees that the host mare won’t reject the embryo. If all does go well with the pregnancy, you cannot promise an uncomplicated foaling - or, moreover, a foal free from health issues or other complications. I would like to say that it never happens but the reality is - it does. I knew of a lovely, lovely foal who was very well bred, perfectly cared for, the mare’s pregnancy was uneventful and ideal - but the foal had a heart problem that was diagnosed sometime after birth, and had to be euthanized.

To put it frankly: your older mare seems like she is serving as a convenient fallback. You love her (and I understand! she’s cute as all get out!) and you know her, and are familiar with her - but the reality is, she is not the prospect for what you say you are looking for, even on top of the uncertainties with breeding. I echo the above ideas; contact the breeder and see what they have, or can perhaps work with you on.

8 Likes

"I appreciate everyone’s insight.

I’m not looking to make an ammy friendly horse and specifically want one with a lot of blood. My mare has a lot of blood and that’s what I enjoy riding. I have a lot of experience riding upper level horses, even if they haven’t been in my own training program, and have started close to 100 young horses over fences.

The problem with buying (as I’ve learned) is that what I’m looking for just isn’t out there. Most breeders keep their really good fillies so when I call someone up they show me what’s second rate. Maybe I need an agent that’s well known, but even then it took me 3 years of serious searching to find this 3yo. If there are unstarted fillies out there that are 8-10 movers, 9-10 jumpers, but most importantly with a good brain, I’d love to see them, but I just don’t think they’re out there in the numbers that people are saying they are.

All of that to say that I have a very specific set of requirements and I’d love to buy if the Right One is out there but I just don’t know that she is, hence my desire to take what I know (my older mare), improve it with a stallion I like and know, and hope it works out."

I don’t even know where to begin with this post.

15 years ago i would’ve responded with what’s in my head ATM, but I have grown wiser and my tongue has calloused over from my learning how to bite it at the right time(s).

So i will simply say - best of luck to you, and consider taking @Laurierace up on her offer.

26 Likes

So glad to see this forum is just as rude and condescending as it was when I left it 15 years ago :roll_eyes:

@Demerara_Stables,

I’m sorry you feel that you’ve been condescended to. I think there’s been a lot of excellent advice on this thread.

I think your very understandable affection for your cute mare has made you a little barn blind.

The way to breed a Grand Prix prospect is with a stallion and a mare proven at that level or proven to produce at that level. And that’s still chancey, you might just as well get a horse that tops out at 1.2 or 1.3.

The way to get to showing over the big sticks sooner is to buy the best bred, best jumping horse out of the best program you can afford.

No one sensible is going to say “Sure, breed your 20 year old maiden Appendix mare to a GP stallion, that’s a way to get a GP prospect.”

If it’s what you want, because you really want a foal out of your beloved mare, and you have the resources, sure, go ahead and give a try. And post the baby photos. But the odds of the resulting foal having Grand Prix potential is not high, and certainly much lower than choosing both a mare and stallion that have produced GP jumpers.

As for me, I would not attempt to breed a 20 yo maiden, even using a recip mare.

If I had the budget and wanted a GP prospect, I would totally take @Laurierace up on her offer.

Best of luck to you in whatever you decide to do.

26 Likes

I was only referring to @ASBJumper’s comment.

Everyone else has been polite. I have been PMing with @Laurierace - I’m waiting to see what she has.

1 Like

I (still) appreciate everyone’s feedback. I’m not “set” on breeding to my mare, as a lot of you suggested. However, other than vague “oh certainly there are other nice horses out there” responses, everything I’ve read here has been something I already know. For instance, yes my mare is jumping over her shoulder in one of those photos. She was 5, I buried her to that fence, and that was the ~3rd time she had jumped that height. Yes I know better now after 15 years of riding and training and improving horse’s jumps. I have PMed a few people that have offered real solutions.

In hindsight, coming to a breeding forum to ask about this probably wasn’t the best place. I have tremendous respect for what you all do (which is why buying the broodmare isn’t an option - I don’t want to be a breeder long term), but at the end of the day, a horse at this level needs to have the brain, and the will to do the job. I’ve seen easily 300 horses go through a chute in the past year, either in person or on video. There’s a certain something that only a very few have exhibited. If I could find one with GP breeding and the brain I’m looking for, absolutely I’d buy it. Again, I’m not convinced it’s out there. As I posted earlier:

Maybe not everyone read that, and there’s nothing I can do about people reading what they want to read on the internet. What I do know is regardless of how high my mare could have jumped when she was younger (as I already stated, I had neither the time nor the money, nor frankly the experience 15 years ago to test her scope), she has the brain, the fight, and the try. I’d rather have that in a partner than one that’s bred out the wazoo but has no desire to jump a course (and I’ve seen a lot of those in the past year).

Anyway, I’m done trying to justify what I’m looking for and I’m certainly not going to continue to argue with people on the internet. If you have a real solution or a reason not to breed my mare that hasn’t been stated here, I’m happy to hear it, and if you have something that sounds like what I’m looking for, I’d love a PM with some info and video.

Is this Dora, the mare you posted about having chronic LF/RH lameness, a RF significant soft tissue injury, and chronic stifle issues? I wouldn’t be keen to replicate the structure of a horse with chronic lameness issues, even if improved significantly by a quality stallion.

21 Likes

The math ain’t mathin. This has to be an emotionally driven choo choo train because anyone with as much experience as OP reports would have sounder reasoning than this.

Wondering which way the thread will go? Because COTH posters won’t jump and find OP a GP prospect unicorn, then they don’t exist, or everyone providing sound, experienced, reasonable advice are just a bunch of internet meanies?

OP, I’m very sorry about losing your horse, truly, but your current line of thinking IMO is only going to lead to more disappointment and heartache in the future.

28 Likes

How many more reasons do you need, from people more experienced than you?

25 Likes

"So glad to see this forum is just as rude and condescending as it was when I left it 15 years ago :roll_eyes:"

Only as rude as the blanket statement that reputable, knowledgeable breeders putting their blood sweat and tears into their programs are hoarding all the nice mares and will only sell you their sloppy seconds. :roll_eyes:

33 Likes

Wait wait wait - I’m going to hope not, but if so OP, this ALONE is a reason not to breed ANY horse. GP royalty or otherwise.

If you’ve seen so many horses that are bred top and bottom to do the job, and you don’t like them, what makes you think a foal out of your mare will fit the bill? Also, every time you talk about this potential horse, it’s a filly. I can guarantee the breeding gods will give you a colt, just cause :wink:.

Lastly, that’s multiple pics of your mare jumping. Add in her build, and there’s really nothing about her that’s conducive to the big sticks. Sorry, but I’ve seen plenty of dead green horses get buried to a fence at a new height and still jump pretty nice - that’s what makes them good jumpers.

Do whatever makes your heart happy, OP. But maybe decide if you want a foal out of THIS mare, or if you want a nice jumper.

24 Likes

I bred one foal. I had a basic 50/50 chance of bay or black / colt or filly. I wanted black filly. I have a bay gelding now.

19 Likes

Well, as mare owners go over those same 15 years, you’re a textbook example of one that’s not listening (after you ASKED others) to other’s wisdom and their disinterested 3rd party evaluation of your very cute, ammy-friendly, untalented jumper of a mare that you expect to miraculously pop out a GP jumper. So yeah, some things never change.

Laurierace has REAL CONNECTIONS to nice horses. Take her up on the offer.

Buy.

17 Likes

Correcting to minimize any confusion. :sweat_smile:

Thanks @skydy!

3 Likes

I think you’ve responded to the wrong person here. @Demerara_Stables is the one thinking of breeding her appendix QH mare to produce a Grand Prix jumper.

@Djones is attempting to explain to the OP why asking for opinions from experienced breeders, and then becoming snooty about the advice given, is silly.

5 Likes