breeder/trainer posting clients horses on facebook

[BeeHoney]

It’s never okay to post photos of someone else’s children on the internet in an identifiable way without permission. However, horses and other belongings are a different matter. Obviously a trainer shouldn’t be annoying their clients by failing to respect their wishes regarding privacy, but it is a very different thing to post photos of a horse vs. a child. Rules of thumb for trainers: only post flattering photos/comments, don’t list anything numerical/value related, and avoid listing too many specific details about the horse.

Again, I would urge the OP (and others) to try to find a way to be generous in this type of scenario. No horse makes it to the top with a magical flash of fire and smoke–there are hours, days and years of planning, worry, and hard work (typically starting even before the horse was conceived) usually on the part of many people. It is just a little bit selfish to not allow those who have been part of that arduous process to celebrate and share the success as well.

And here’s just a little piece of philosophy on the matter: horses in general are prone to accident, lameness, or simply mediocrity. When you have a horse that is succeeding, whether it is doing well in training, winning at small shows, or winning at big shows, or winning races–it’s time to celebrate and enjoy it and let others enjoy it with you.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;7854647]
A horse is not a child, so it isn’t unethical for a barn or a trainer to post photos, etc. about the horses they are working with. However, I do think it is unprofessional for someone to post photos of a horse after being asked not to. [/QUOTE]

What’s the difference between “unethical” and “unprofessional” in this case?

As I see it, the horse has financial value to the HO and may be an investment. No one should be allowed to make public information that might diminish the horse’s value. And who’s to say whether something like a photo of “5 year old baby learning to tie” is a pro or a con for that horse? Does the picture of a horse with a helmetless kid in shorts standing on its back increase or decrease it’s value? I could see someone posting that kind of picture thinking it demonstrated the horse’s brokeness, and someone else thinking that it represented the horse being trained by ignorant people.

Value and good pictures are in the eye of the beholder, so it makes sense to let the HO determine what gets posted where. I don’t see any reason that the HO can’t send stuff to the breeder privately. That would be very nice.

[red_mares]

@BeeHoney;7855113

It is just a little bit selfish to not allow those who have been part of that arduous process to celebrate and share the success as well.

I would argue that it a bit selfish on the breeder’s part to defy the current owner’s wishes, just so they can celebrate vicariously on Facebook.

[Donella]

It truly amazes me sometimes the rather trivial things people choose to get worked up about in a world where so many truly bad and difficult things can happen.

[cgray0983]

As a client of both a breeder and trainer, and myself a heavy FB user, I think this is inappropriate. There are certain etiquette rules when it comes to Facebook, and if you have asked even just the once to “please refrain from posting photos of my horse”, they should be respectful and not do that.

I am 100% okay with my trainer and/or our horses’ breeder *sharing photos or video that I myself have posted, as I can control the security settings from my account. Often times I will change a photo from private to public if it has been shared to a public audience, but bottom line is I still have control of who sees it.

You are not old school. While this type of incident is not covered in Facebook’s Terms (my husband used to work on the Photos team at FB), the photos being shared are the property of the trainer, I think they are breaching what I call Social Media Etiquette, and it’s inappropriate.

I have to agree with poltroon - as this is a fringe case where you can’t control the privacy, the photos are not your property but the content is, and there is no reason to get on Facebook just for this - perhaps try the “I would like to approve” method.

*sharing is different than posting on Facebook, there is a specific link to share someone else’s post which will keep the legacy privacy settings.

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=Donella;7855128]
It truly amazes me sometimes the rather trivial things people choose to get worked up about in a world where so many truly bad and difficult things can happen.[/QUOTE]

Well, sometimes they are worth getting worked up over. I have battled several times over the past three years to make Redwine’s connections stop stealing my filly’s photos because I do not want anyone to possibly be defrauded or put money into a criminal’s pockets due to seeing my horse in their ads. So as with everything there can be more to the story but the bottom line regardless is if you ask them not to use the photos for any reason that is that.

[Dressagelvr]

Just because some people like to live their lives in front of the world doesn’t mean we all have to.

If this were me, I would have picked up the horse from training as soon as I saw the second video.

There are good trainers in this world who actually respect their clients. Settle for nothing less.

[Fourbeats]

I think people are mixing up two different issues. Owners sharing information about their horse with the horse’s breeder (or the public) is one thing. Someone else deciding that it’s ok to share information about a horse that doesn’t belong to them without express approval of the owner is the problem.

If I want to share my horses journey to XYZ goal with the public, that should be up to me to decide, not my trainer, farrier, vet, etc. And, if I make it clear I don’t want my horse plastered all over Facebook, I would expect my wishes to be followed. If it happened a second time after I requested the practice to stop, you bet, I’d pull the horse.

[BeeHoney]

@mvp;7855125

What’s the difference between “unethical” and “unprofessional” in this case?

Posting children’s photos on the internet is a potential safety issue for the children involved as it could make them the target of a predator. IMO doing something that could put a child (or an animal) at risk is unethical.

Posting photos/videos of someone’s horse doesn’t put anyone in danger, it’s more a question of preferences. Not respecting the reasonable preferences of clients is unprofessional.

IME, owners who are sensitive about horse pics/info on websites/social media usually are concerned about financial privacy–they don’t want relatives or ex-husbands or coworkers noticing that they own expensive looking race-winning or show-winning horses. In that case, it is easy enough to use a nickname for the horse in question and not use the owner’s name. But seriously, at a certain point when a horse is out competing it’s all public knowledge. Race and show entries aren’t confidential. Plus anyone can walk up to a racetrack or a ring at a show venue and take a photo or video, or even pull over by the side of the road and take pictures of horses in a field. There’s a point where you need to let go and not worry about this stuff because you can’t control it and you are going to come across as a control freak or a crazy person if you try to.

Red mares, I respect your POV, but I stand by what I said. It’s not a vicarious celebration–the breeder probably handled that horse when it was still in a shipping container hot off the Fed Ex truck, maybe stayed up all night with it when it was born, halter broke it, took it to it’s inspections, etc. The breeder was actually THERE and isn’t some random person just imagining that they were a part of that horse’s life.

[Linny]

As much I would love more breeders being able to follow the careers of “their” foals and would love it if more people knew where their horses came from (if they are nice, others might want to go to the same source!) it is up to the owner, not the trainer to decide what info and when is distributed.

I know racetrack exercise riders and grooms who monitor sites like OTTB Connect to find the whereabouts of horses they cared for, because they care. I know people who want to learn about pedigrees so that they can find good young prospects. FB is great for this.

While it would be nice if the trainer send pics and video (privately) to the owner, if they have asked that FB not be used, the trainer should respect that. It would also be nice if the owner were to share such info with the breeder, privately.
My guess is that the trainer has several admins on their site and someone didn’t get the memo. It happens. That said, for whatever reason, the owner doesn’t want info on the horse on their FB page and the request should be honored.
Maybe training and board contracts should include “social media images” clauses?

[red_mares]

[QUOTE=BeeHoney;7856379]

Red mares, I respect your POV, but I stand by what I said. It’s not a vicarious celebration–the breeder probably handled that horse when it was still in a shipping container hot off the Fed Ex truck, maybe stayed up all night with it when it was born, halter broke it, took it to it’s inspections, etc. The breeder was actually THERE and isn’t some random person just imagining that they were a part of that horse’s life.[/QUOTE]

This is a lovely sentiment, but you seem to be missing the point that you no longer own a horse after you’ve sold it. If the owner wants to keep you appraised of the horse’s progress is their decision alone. You really have no say in the matter.

After you sell it, as a breeder, you are no longer the person who gets to make the decision about how the horse is advertised. Whether or not you carried the semen for a horse has no bearing on whether a trainer releases pictures of the horse to you. I can see where you’d appreciate an update, but any update is at the pleasure of the owner. If it doesn’t please them, you’re SOL.

If you snap a photo at a show that is very different than requesting pictures from a trainer not in your employ & posting them on a public Facebook page.

[KC058]

It’s very possible another person posted the horse on the trainers Facebook. Facebook seems to be here to stay… I have issues with the lack of privacy on Facebook and use a cute alias just to keep in touch but avoid too much personal info out there for identity thieves. I understand the desire for old school privacy! I would bring the issue up with the trainer again and perhaps put up a stall sign stating no social media without permission. If your request is deliberately denied again by the trainer then I think you have bigger honesty/respect issues. All this said any person can post a photo of your horse at a show because public events are open to all photographers. Facebook is something to enjoy with caution. Good luck on finding the happy medium!

[trubandloki]

@red mares;7856902

This is a lovely sentiment, but you seem to be missing the point that you no longer own a horse after you’ve sold it. If the owner wants to keep you appraised of the horse’s progress is their decision alone. You really have no say in the matter.

After you sell it, as a breeder, you are no longer the person who gets to make the decision about how the horse is advertised. Whether or not you carried the semen for a horse has no bearing on whether a trainer releases pictures of the horse to you. I can see where you’d appreciate an update, but any update is at the pleasure of the owner. If it doesn’t please them, you’re SOL.

I have to agree.

It is like when anyone sells a horse. When someone sells a horse and comes here complaining about how the new owner is not doing things right people promptly tell them that if they wanted to have a say in how the horse is trained/housed/cared for they needed to keep the horse, once sold it is not theirs anymore.
Same holds true for breeders.

I totally understand why anyone wants to know what is going on with a horse they bred or once owned. That does not give them a right to that information though.

[Blume_Farm]

I too am not a FB user for personal stuff and understand the desire to be private. However, I do use FB often for my small animal hospital and we always post cute pictures of folks pets. Most of the owners absolutely love having their pet’s pic on the page and reading others comments. However, one day we took a super cute photo of a golden retriever dog that was dropped off for an ear infection. We posted something to the tune of “Aren’t I cute! Typical Golden and got myself my first ear infection. Welcome to the world of Golden ownership!”. Well, the owner’s daughter saw the post and yelled at her mom for not telling her her dog had an ear infection. The mom called us all upset. We now always ask owner’s if we can post a picture. Lesson learned. Different strokes for different folks.

As a breeder I LOVE to hear update from buyers of the horses I bred. I usually send them all an email twice a year asking how things are going. Most time I hear back, but sometimes I don’t. I ask them that if the horse sells to pass my info to the next owner. Hopefully they will.

[Ajierene]

If it is ok for a professional photographer to use a picture of you without your permission, it is ok for a trainer or breeder to use a picture of your horse. Like the professional photographer, if they know your name, they can attach it to the photo. Any other personal information should not be shared.

It makes good business sense to honor a client’s wishes, which the trainer should do. There is nothing stopping the breeder from walking onto the trainer’s farm, taking pictures and posting them on facebook without anyone’s permission. Similarly, if someone took pictures from the road and posted them, there is nothing anyone can do.

Just being a private is not reason enough to get worked up. Would you expect a magazine or newsletter to do the same?

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=Ajierene;7857156]
If it is ok for a professional photographer to use a picture of you without your permission, it is ok for a trainer or breeder to use a picture of your horse. Like the professional photographer, if they know your name, they can attach it to the photo. Any other personal information should not be shared.

It makes good business sense to honor a client’s wishes, which the trainer should do. There is nothing stopping the breeder from walking onto the trainer’s farm, taking pictures and posting them on facebook without anyone’s permission. Similarly, if someone took pictures from the road and posted them, there is nothing anyone can do.

Just being a private is not reason enough to get worked up. Would you expect a magazine or newsletter to do the same?[/QUOTE]

When a professional photographer takes your photo you have to sign something that says it is OK for them to use your image in advertising, etc.

Same with a magazine…they do not just use people’s photos, they ask permission first.

(I realize there are exceptions for famous people, but we are not talking about famous people here, we are talking about someone with a horse at the trainers.)

[Kareen]

The world is getting trickier in so many ways. In the nearly 15 years I’ve spent dealing with remote owners I’ve encountered publishing dilemmas in all thinkable ways a) owners asking me not to post pics on FB and/or disclose their identity (which I couldn’t agree more is a perfectly fine choice and needs to be respected under any circumstance - it would seem stupid to purposefully upset your client??), b) owners feeling second best because I did not post pics of their horses and ongoing affairs on FB assuming they might not agree with it.
I also had to prevent short distance clients to post really bad photos of other clients’ horses who just happened to be in the picture whilst they were taking ‘sweet shots’ of their own. These were photos that were so bad I would have freaked if anybody had posted them e.g. horses standing in totally akward angles with their feet in weird positions or photos where all you could see was a giant nose making the horse look like an elk rather than the beautiful horse they were.
The climax of publishing hickup thus far happened some 7 years ago when I had a rather upset lady yelling at me on the phone demanding I take her horse off of my website. It took me a while to figure out who she was. Turned out she had bought her horse just recently and I had had him on my sales list as a 4yo so he was still visible under ‘sold horsees’. The horse was a 9yo when she called me and threw a fit about it. How she had managed to not note the photo in 5 years I will never know.
I don’t think she legally because a) it wasn’t her photo and b) she didn’t own the horse at the time I had photographed it, but I removed it anyway, who needs the aggravation…

With on line information being so readily abused, people stealing other people’s photos all the time and others using materials in fraudulent or otherwise malevolent ways I can definitely understand if an owner decides to be more private and not want their horse-matters published on line let alone on FB. I do however find FB incredibly convenient to keep owners updated as it doesn’t cause half the work it does as to keep a separate page for each horse on my own page. Nowadays I therefor tend to ask in our new-customer questionaire whether or not they agree to have photos and random infos posted on FB or not. I also clearly ask what the plan is with each and every horse so if they want pics and video plastered about I will have it in some written form.
Luckily I am blessed with clients who are by far more reasonable and pleasant than average so with very few exceptions I have never encountered any disagreements. That being said I try to only post materials I would post from my personal horses as well and keep the less flattering views to email whatsapp and/or personal messaging only so the owner can then decide if and who they want to share it with.
Some people are also completely non-understanding of horses’ developmental stages and you don’t want to present those folk with photos or video of a growing yearling who is at yak-stage and couldn’t move his way out of a paperbag.

Long story short: The trainer should not ignore your request to not publish photos but you should probably also not make it a bigger issue than it actually is. Could indeed very well be that someone else put them up and/or they didn’t even know who the horse was at the time?
When I approached my client who had done the yucky-photos with other people’s horses in the picture she was very understanding and when I showed her photos that we did put on line for remote owners she did see there was a significant difference and she apologised and said it hadn’t even occurred to her that those photos could actually reflect poorly on the horses shown when all she wanted was to show how happy and sweet they were out in their field.

[Home_Again_Farm]

Well said, Kareen! :yes:

[sylvan_farm]

Not to hijack this thread, but I am having the opposite problem from the OP. A person is trying to establish their own training business and is using photos of them handling winning horses I have bred. These photos are in the public domain so no problem there. BUT, none of the horses have been identified nor is the breeder identified - I owned each of the horses when the picture was taken. I have mentioned that I would like the horses and me identified, not much response yet.

(hmm, poor grammar tonight, sigh)

[flyinghorse]

For people that I know, I always ask that they run the pictures by me, first, before they post on FB. Other than that, FB is a public broadcasting system. If I see something I think is detrimental, I send a polite request to remove it from FB. Other than that…what can you really do…people love to take pictures…especially of beautiful horses…even if the pictures may not be so flattering to the horses. It is aggravating, but it is a fact of life. It happens in every walk of life, every hobby, every occupation, and in very private situations. People will be people, just as children will be children. All you can do is follow up, and ask again!