Breeder uses a registry different from AKC -- would you be concerned?

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Paks;8431472]
found this

here https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20121115104724AANFJCW 4th answer.[/QUOTE]

No reputable breeder would ever do that. That screams puppy mill more than anything else in this thread. Especially because AKC would never dream of inspecting a small-time breeder - what do they have, 6 inspectors for the entire nation? This is a puppy mill that is trying to stay under AKC’s radar by not registering all of their puppies…and then giving the buyers a guilt trip with “go ahead, pay more for the same dog”. :no:

(Or, they are just ignorant about how AKC actually works. I’ve never met anyone that has been inspected by AKC, although most of the breeders I know would have no reason to fear an inspection.)

[My_Two_Cents]

You have met the puppy. Met it’s parents. Seen where and how it has been raised. Really don’t care if it has papers. If you are content all is well, get the pup and take him to a vet in a timely fashion for a checkup. I would check to see if revaccinating and re worming would be a problem, just for piece of mind. Papers don’t make a dog nor do they guarantee a healthy dog. If you are happy with him, go get him and don’t worry about the rest. Not every breeder is running a puppy mill. Good luck with your new puppy and don’t forget to post pictures!

[Paks]

[QUOTE=S1969;8431476]
No reputable breeder would ever do that. That screams puppy mill more than anything else in this thread. Especially because AKC would never dream of inspecting a small-time breeder - what do they have, 6 inspectors for the entire nation? This is a puppy mill that is trying to stay under AKC’s radar by not registering all of their puppies…and then giving the buyers a guilt trip with “go ahead, pay more for the same dog”. :no:

(Or, they are just ignorant about how AKC actually works. I’ve never met anyone that has been inspected by AKC, although most of the breeders I know would have no reason to fear an inspection.)[/QUOTE]

I’m not defending her explanation just reporting it. I felt it was interesting to see first hand how they explain it.

[RubyTuesday]

[QUOTE=My Two Cents;8431533]
You have met the puppy. Met it’s parents. Seen where and how it has been raised. Really don’t care if it has papers. If you are content all is well, get the pup and take him to a vet in a timely fashion for a checkup. I would check to see if revaccinating and re worming would be a problem, just for piece of mind. Papers don’t make a dog nor do they guarantee a healthy dog. If you are happy with him, go get him and don’t worry about the rest. Not every breeder is running a puppy mill. Good luck with your new puppy and don’t forget to post pictures![/QUOTE]

Exactly. Plenty of disreputable breeders can provide AKC papers, and many great dogs and puppies come out of shelters where no history or parentage can ever be known.

[GraceLikeRain]

Personally, if I am going to purchase a specific breed then I want a good representation of the breed. Someone who specifically breeds for companion homes and has both parents in the home is rarely breeding to the standard. While I am a staunch AKC supporter I recognize that there are multiple venues for proving merit but I’d want to see the dogs doing something (CGC, therapy certified, barn hunt, agility, rally, etc.).

What health testing is being done? CKC breeders and especially ones with multiple generations in the home will often use the line “I know my dogs and they are healthy. Grandma lived to X so I don’t bother with testing.” To me that is such a cop out because of recessive genes or having a generation that is asymptomatic.

http://www.stca.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1168:responsible-scottie-breeder&catid=59:breed-characteristics-needs&Itemid=141

Just as a FYI in FL the following breeders are members of the national Scottish Terrier Club:

Brookstone (AKC Breeder of Merit)
Dufftown
Snowbank
Misty Highlands Kennel

Georgia Kennels:

Brae Scottish Terriers
Eroglen

[Beethoven]

[QUOTE=Bensmom;8431009]
Thanks, guys! I think it is “Continental” Kennel Club, and that is what I was immediately thinking was puppy mill trouble. But, having visited the property, and met the parents as well as all the young dogs, and seeing that they are all friendly, happy and healthy, and that the pups are raised inside, I felt much better about it.

My guess is that one of her first dogs was a puppy mill dog with CKC papers and she couldn’t get AKC papers on them. But, the conformation of the dogs is good, and the temperament is good, and I don’t want to show, so it didn’t seem to me that I should care so much.

And my DH has dropped his concern now, and basically said “well, she’s doing a great job with the pups and they are being raised happily and healthy” and she does have them vet checked. I’m going to take mine to my vet first thing Saturday morning in addition.

I really want a pup that has been raised inside with the family, and these have, so I feel good about that, too.

Thanks for the input!

Libby[/QUOTE]

FYI, you live in the state of Florida where it is illegal to sell a puppy without a health certificate. If she doesn’t have one for the puppy than that would be a huge red flag to me! Also, our policy at my practice is that we do not accept any breeder administered vaccines so beware of that in case your vet does not either. If the puppy does come with a health certificate than it was vaccinated by a vet and had a fecal run by a vet.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;8431725]
Personally, if I am going to purchase a specific breed then I want a good representation of the breed. [/QUOTE]

Me too; but the OP is past that part in the search process - she is picking the puppy up this week, and only wanted to know whether she should have specific concerns because of the CKC registration.

If she doesn’t mind the fact that the registration is pretty meaningless, I would not give it any additional thought. She’s seen the premises, parents and puppies, and was satisfied.

[Horsegal984]

Scottish terriers have some pretty significant health issues. I would care much less about the “papers” and much more about the health testing.

To get a dog registered with the CKC, all you have to do is send in a photo and a statement that the dog “appears” to be purebred. Seriously. Then you can register all of their puppies and make them look like registered purebred puppies. Heck, I could have registered my rescued Cattle Dog female with them, even though I know full well she’s an ACD/GSD mix.

[Bensmom]

Thank you guys for all of the input!

I am very familiar with Scotties and their health issues – we’ve participated in the SCTA’s health survey concerning my Scottie I lost in August, and I’m also familiar with the information on their health issues (other than cancer, which is all too common).

And, she does provide a health certificate, and a huge bonus in her book is that, even without any inside information, she has changed vet practices from one I know to be sketchy, to one that has no issues. I’m the prosecutor for the Board of Veterinary Medicine for the State of Florida, and am comfortable with her practices concerning the vetting of the puppies. Mine will go right away for a vet check anyway, because I know that the certificate is only good for the point in time the puppy is seen by the vet, and in addition, we actually had one case where a breeder took a litter in in two shifts, so that she got 9 health certificates, but brought one puppy in twice, leaving the puppy with significant defects at home both times. It was a breed where all the pups look alike, and the vet could not have known that the whole litter had not been seen. She then sold the puppy with a health certificate, when the vet had never seen the puppy. It was a mess, but one ultimately that the vet cannot be held responsible for, when he had been duped by the breeder. :no:

In any event, I feel confident in having researched and looked over the situation, and frankly the papers don’t matter one whit to me – I’m going to neuter anyway, and have no interest in breeding them myself (Though, I have to admit, the “pack” of young adult Scotties that was playing in the fenced front yard when we arrived was pretty darn cute!! ) so what registry they are is irrelevant to me. My DH raised the question, so I realized I at least needed to be educated.

In his case, I think it was a last ditch objection to raise, as he is hopeful still that I will change my mind. He says he doesn’t want a second dog, but I think, actually, he misses Taggie so much still that he’s afraid it will make him sad. This one is a silver brindle though, and won’t look just like the one we lost, so I think that will help.

Thank you guys for the input – I at least want to be educated in making choices!

Libby

[datdog]

A health check will not pick up defects in the line, that is why it’s important to know if the adult dogs were screened for defects prior to breeding.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=Bensmom;8430723]

Everything passed my tests – the young dogs were bright eyed and healthy, I liked both parents, they were getting outside time to play and are otherwise raised in the house with the family.

But, the breeder is quite upfront about the fact that she raises companion animals and not show dogs. Which is fine with me, as long as it appears that her lines are staying within the breed standard, and from what I saw, the dogs I interacted with might not win at Westminster, but are, emphatically, Scotties.

(i’ve been involved in multi-breed rescue for a long time, and am good at spotting where something is branded “Schnauzer” or “border collie” or “Scottie” but is, in reality, a terrier mix)

She has them registered with the CKC, and not the AKC. Since I have known that AKC papers mean nothing if you don’t plan to breed the dogs, and frankly, can be fraudulently created, that didn’t worry me much.

But, my DH raised the question this morning, as one final he-isn’t-crazy-about-this-idea objection. (DH does not want a puppy – he is happy with our rescue Lakie, but will go along with the idea, since it is something that I really want to do. I lost my Scottie in August of this year, and really would like to have another one).

I’ve sent the breeder a query and asked why they aren’t AKC registered, but if I remember correctly, it had to do with her not breeding for show, but as companion animals and not wanting to fool with the hoops you had to jump through with the AKC.

These are lovely dogs, raised in a good environment, and she has the parents, grandparents, etc. in her home and I was pleased with what I saw, but I wondered if it should matter to someone who is simply going to neuter the young fellow and never use the AKC papers. [/QUOTE]

I’d consider it a major, major red flag. It this was a Brittany who was only registered with NAVHDA–that’s not a big deal. I am presuming by CKC she means Continental Kennel Club and not Canadian Kennel Club since your location is listed as Florida. Canadian Kennel Club is stellar, in many ways they have some regulations in place which I’d love to see AKC adopt. Continental Kennel Club is lousy. It likely means she started with dogs on limited registration or pet store dogs. Having the whole family on site is also another flag. If you’re breeding to improve the breed, it seldom means the male sitting in your back yard. My current litter is from shipped semen out of California. The comment about being priced like companion dogs and not show dogs is also pretty questionable. I know a lot of breeders and very, very few charge less for a health companion vs a show prospect. The same amount of effort goes in to a puppy whether it’s destined for the show ring or a companion home.

There is no obligation to title a dog or even show it prior to breeding it on the AKC end, so I’d say she’s feeding you a line of BS.

[hosspuller]

I’ve had dogs from the pound and AKC registered dogs. The unknown mix was the healthiest and lived the longest (14 years for a Doberman). The current dog is Continental Kennel Club. They all were spayed or neutered. ALL have been good dogs for me.

OP … you’ve done the due diligence for your needs. Enjoy your dog.

[Houndhill]

We haven’t yet heard from OP whether this breeder has screened for health issues that AKC breeders would do…doubt it.

CKC= puppy mill bred or at least bred without regard to the health testing or code of ethics that the Scottish Terrier Breeders of the AKC Club would adere to.

[sockmonkey]

Does the AKC do inspections? I never thought so. I thought they were just a registration organization and had to authority to do anything with breeders specifically, or why would there be puppy mills? They would just go inspect them and shut them down. I understand most puppy mills don’t sell AKC dogs, but some do.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Bensmom;8432090]
Thank you guys for all of the input!

I am very familiar with Scotties and their health issues – we’ve participated in the SCTA’s health survey concerning my Scottie I lost in August, and I’m also familiar with the information on their health issues (other than cancer, which is all too common).

And, she does provide a health certificate, and a huge bonus in her book is that, even without any inside information, she has changed vet practices from one I know to be sketchy, to one that has no issues. I’m the prosecutor for the Board of Veterinary Medicine for the State of Florida, and am comfortable with her practices concerning the vetting of the puppies. Mine will go right away for a vet check anyway, because I know that the certificate is only good for the point in time the puppy is seen by the vet, and in addition, we actually had one case where a breeder took a litter in in two shifts, so that she got 9 health certificates, but brought one puppy in twice, leaving the puppy with significant defects at home both times. It was a breed where all the pups look alike, and the vet could not have known that the whole litter had not been seen. She then sold the puppy with a health certificate, when the vet had never seen the puppy. It was a mess, but one ultimately that the vet cannot be held responsible for, when he had been duped by the breeder. :no:

In any event, I feel confident in having researched and looked over the situation, and frankly the papers don’t matter one whit to me – I’m going to neuter anyway, and have no interest in breeding them myself (Though, I have to admit, the “pack” of young adult Scotties that was playing in the fenced front yard when we arrived was pretty darn cute!! ) so what registry they are is irrelevant to me. My DH raised the question, so I realized I at least needed to be educated.

In his case, I think it was a last ditch objection to raise, as he is hopeful still that I will change my mind. He says he doesn’t want a second dog, but I think, actually, he misses Taggie so much still that he’s afraid it will make him sad. This one is a silver brindle though, and won’t look just like the one we lost, so I think that will help.

Thank you guys for the input – I at least want to be educated in making choices!

Libby[/QUOTE]

You know, I am surprised that, being in the dog world, especially in that position, you were not aware of the different registries and who was behind them, especially in the southern part of the US, where so many commercial puppy mills are?

That is what doesn’t quite make sense in all this, unless I am misunderstanding something here.

Also, you should have plenty of handy vets to consult, that would have known about this.

Anyway, it seems that this is a done deal and you have the puppy bought, all this is moot question now.

I am sure that you will do the best for the puppy, no matter where it comes from and that is all that matters, really.

The reason some want to be sure and explain this is because someone else may just be reading here and at least now know to double and triple check and has more to go by when looking for their next dog.

[Bensmom]

Actually, Bluey, I do have plenty of vets to consult. And, I had figured out what the different registries were, but not whether it was an important thing for a non-show dog. And, I’ve done a great deal of rescue work, and have had pet store pups and BYB pups in the past. But, I really value the experience people have here on COTH, and I wanted to know what the hive mind HERE thought.

I am comfortable with my assessment of this breeder and her dogs. I was curious, mostly because we don’t deal with puppy mill issues and different registries (that is handled through the Department of Agriculture in our state, not my agency), how people felt about puppies where you were comfortable with how the animals were kept and raised, but that the registry was just different.

Both my WFT that came from a Pet Store and was a puppy mill dog (purchased when I was 19 – I didn’t know better then) had AKC papers, as did the Schnauzer that I got from a backyard breeder who exemplified the not-good things about BYB.

Both were lovely dogs that I had many good years with. And the fact that they had AKC papers meant squat about what kind of breeders they came from.

I am sorry if my question didn’t make sense and it appears that I might not be clear in what I’ve said and what I’ve asked here. While I have seen less than well bred dogs WITH AKC papers, I have not yet dealt with this CKC and I was curious as to whether it would concern the experts here. And frankly, while I don’t care, I wanted to be able to explain it to DH too.

Obviously, the answer is yes, some would see a big red flag and others would not. I only have a deposit on the pup and plans to go and pick him up at this point.

This is my first puppy in 11 years – I’ve had several rescues and adoptees in that time period, but I haven’t bought a puppy since my Scottie in 2004.

As far as the genetic testing – I have discussed with the breeder generally, but will ask for specifics on Friday. Basically, the VWD is quite serious in Scotties, as is Scottie cramp, and she and I have discussed both, though I haven’t been provided with the actual test results.

By far the biggest health threat to Scotties is cancer. And, unfortunately, there is little you can do to know if yours will develop it - or frankly, how soon they will, because as a vet buddy told me, it isn’t a question of whether they will get cancer, but when and what type And while losing mine to lymphoma broke my heart, I wouldn’t trade the 11 wonderful years we had for anything.

Thank you guys for all the input – many of my contacts locally are 100% adopt don’t shop folks, and while I agree with this most of the time (see the last four dogs were all adopted/rescues) I do think that a well bred example of a breed has an important place in the dog world, and frankly, I miss having a home filled with Scottitude!! :sadsmile: So, having the input of folks that also breed/buy purebred pups is very helpful.

I will report back on Friday if I come home with Mr. Puppy, and how it goes!

Libby

[JBD]

I know my neighbor who breeds and shows AKC registered dogs has been visited by an AKC representative to check out her dogs and facility. Not because of anything she did wrong, it’s just part of the deal
CKC breeders are pretty much unregulated which can mean nothing or everything depending on the individual.

[Knubbsy]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8431466]
You sort of can if you want only performance titles on your dog. AKC calls it the Purebred Alternative Listing. You send in photos, where you got your dog and why you think your dog is whatever breed you think it is.

A PAL listing is good only for performance titles. They cannot be shown in conformation nor can the dog have regular AKC registrable offspring.[/QUOTE]
Possibly good to note for anyone looking on the forums for PAL info. You can do breed-specific sports even with a PAL - I take my PAL Sheltie in AKC Herding Trials but couldn’t if she were an All American.

[Houndhill]

One reason to support your national breed club (the Scottish Terrier Club of America), which is a member club of the AKC (only clubs are members of the AKC, not individuals) is to support research into breed-specific and other health issues.

I just euthanized my beloved Irish Wolfhound Trillium, this morning, from lymphoma. We were doing oral chemo and she had been doing so well, until the past couple of days. There was a tumor on her heart and it had metzed to her lungs. She suddenly had difficulty breathing and it was my privilege to let a great dog go.

I will make a contribution in her memory to the Irish Wolfhound Foundation. This organization supports research into some of the health problems that plague Irish Wolfhounds. Trillium was in fact in the Lifetime Cardiac Study funded by the IWF, she just had an echo in October.

What I’m trying to say is that the national breed clubs, which are AKC members, often support important health research. My own wolfhounds have actually benefitted from some of the research into bladder cancer which was funded by the Scotty Club.

So, even if your puppy is not AKC registered, it might be useful to check out your parent club (Scottish Terrier Club of America) and think about supporting it, and benefitting from the wealth of breed-specific knowledge that the club will share with you.

If you can get to know some long-time breeders, they will help you when you get into difficulties even though your puppy is from a different background. At least the best of them will. I know I have never turned anyone down who seeks help with any Irish Wolfhound, regardless of where they obtained it, and the same is true for most of us.

[ElisLove]

If you know the parent dogs’ names you should be able to look the genetic testing results up online.
http://offa.org/