Breeder uses a registry different from AKC -- would you be concerned?

[Bensmom]

Ok, we are set to pick up a new Scottie pup on Friday of this week. I’ve been communicating with the breeder since the end of August, we’ve been to see the pup, met the parents, and had a chance to look at all of her other Scotties.

Everything passed my tests – the young dogs were bright eyed and healthy, I liked both parents, they were getting outside time to play and are otherwise raised in the house with the family.

But, the breeder is quite upfront about the fact that she raises companion animals and not show dogs. Which is fine with me, as long as it appears that her lines are staying within the breed standard, and from what I saw, the dogs I interacted with might not win at Westminster, but are, emphatically, Scotties.

(i’ve been involved in multi-breed rescue for a long time, and am good at spotting where something is branded “Schnauzer” or “border collie” or “Scottie” but is, in reality, a terrier mix)

She has them registered with the CKC, and not the AKC. Since I have known that AKC papers mean nothing if you don’t plan to breed the dogs, and frankly, can be fraudulently created, that didn’t worry me much.

But, my DH raised the question this morning, as one final he-isn’t-crazy-about-this-idea objection. (DH does not want a puppy – he is happy with our rescue Lakie, but will go along with the idea, since it is something that I really want to do. I lost my Scottie in August of this year, and really would like to have another one).

I’ve sent the breeder a query and asked why they aren’t AKC registered, but if I remember correctly, it had to do with her not breeding for show, but as companion animals and not wanting to fool with the hoops you had to jump through with the AKC.

These are lovely dogs, raised in a good environment, and she has the parents, grandparents, etc. in her home and I was pleased with what I saw, but I wondered if it should matter to someone who is simply going to neuter the young fellow and never use the AKC papers. And fwiw, the pups are priced like companion dogs and not show dogs, which I actually appreciated.

Thoughts?

(and yes, we’ve considered rescue, and are on the waiting list with several branches of the Scottie rescue groups, but we live on a farm with no fenced yard, and is unlikely that they would approve us, and it is rare for young Scotties to come into either shelters or rescues. We have a Lakeland Terrier that we adopted this summer, right before my Scottie was diagnosed with Lymphoma, and we’ve worked with a lot of the issues he came with and I wouldn’t trade him now for anything, but it has reinforced my desire to train a pup myself!)

Thanks!

[RobinL]

I would be more concerned with conformation and temperament of parents and pups than CKC papers. Isn’t that just Canadian Kennel Club?

[Bluey]

The CKC as in Canadian Kennel Club, or Continental Kennel Club, the puppy mill one Hunt was involved with?

They started that decades ago, when the AKC got too strict on large kennels with multiple breeds.
Puppy millers started their own clubs, at that time Continental Kennel Club and National Kennel Club.
Those are the dogs mostly sold in pet stores and city corners.

I don’t know how that has turned out down the years, but that is what I know from long ago.

[RobinL]

I would be more concerned with conformation and temperament of parents and pups than CKC papers. Is that Canadian Kennel Club or Continental KC?

[Where_sMyWhite]

Does she do any of the “conventional” health screening/testing on the parents?

I am not familiar enough with Scotties to know what congenital issues they may have - the US national breed organization should have that information. If the breeder isn’t testing, I’d personally be leery.

[S1969]

CKC - Canadian Kennel Club is a reputable registry; CKC - Continental Kennel Club isn’t so much. Of course any registry is only as good as the information that breeders provide (aside from DNA testing) and no kennel clubs evaluate puppies for correctness…so you have to take them all with a grain of salt…there are plenty of crappy breeders that do register with AKC.

In my opinion, I would not value a Continental Kennel Club registration as being worth anything at all - to me, it would be essentially the same as if the breeder didn’t register them. Which may be no big deal at all if you don’t plan to show them, or compete in any AKC events (e.g. agility, obedience, etc.) in which case you might need to get a PAL/ILP # and “re-register” them (I don’t know if AKC accepts CKC registrations?)

I’d be more interested in whether a breeder performed basic health tests appropriate for the breed than where they were registered.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Bensmom;8430723]
I’ve sent the breeder a query and asked why they aren’t AKC registered, but if I remember correctly, it had to do with her not breeding for show, but as companion animals and not wanting to fool with the hoops you had to jump through with the AKC.[/QUOTE]

There are no hoops with AKC - you just send in the paperwork and give them the money - if the parents are registered with AKC, there is nothing to it. I’d guess that at some point in the dogs’ history there was a dog of unknown breeding used, or known, but unregistered.

I don’t know that there is ANY way to get an unknown dog registered with AKC, so it would be impossible to register the litter, and all subsequent offspring.

It is possible that CKC and other registries that allow the offspring to be registered, even if one of the parents wasn’t registered. And that would be one reason to switch from AKC to CKC.

[Calamber]

It makes no sense that she registers them through CKC because they are companion dogs. Plenty of AKC dogs are companion dogs, and there is an easy way for them not to be used for breeding as the papers are marked for limited registry. (of course that presumes someone would honor that and not just breed non registered puppies or CKC puppies). Continental Kennel Club is the primary registry for puppy mill puppies.

[D_BaldStockings]

Find out if she does any of the following tests / clearances

http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/brdreqs.html?breed=ST
http://www.mcvanscotties.com/Articles/health_issues.php

Her dogs should also probably be DNA’d as proof of parentage.

If she raises companions, I would expect the dogs to be IN the house and have basic come, sit, fetch… interactive commands; and be housebroken and walk on leads, perhaps do some simple tricks AND be good with children, seniors, other dogs, perhaps cats (the breeding dogs) -be sure they ARE companions, not just dog-run dogs.

Have you seen older relatives of the parents and prior youngsters? Are they healthy and will the breeder recommend you talk to their owners as a reference?
Especially look for healthy active oldsters: if your breeder doesn’t know of any related to her breeding dogs, that is a red flag for me: either she isn’t researching her pedigrees or they aren’t a long-lived family.

Are they a ‘single breed kennel’ (They should be).

Check that the teeth look normal and the bite is correct as teeth problems are likely to get worse as a dog ages.

If you decide to get a male pup, check for both descended testes.

Note that there are venues that will allow unregistered dogs to compete in non-conformation AKC events or UKC events with ILP or similar ID numbers: barn dog, agility, rally, obedience, dock jumping, etc. If any of hers or related dogs have done anything that would be a plus.

Think before you fall in love, might be a great dog for you, might not.

Good luck with the future Scottie.

[D_BaldStockings]

You also may want to check the breeder’s name with both AKC and UKC.

They do keep a record of banned breeders.

[Bensmom]

Thanks, guys! I think it is “Continental” Kennel Club, and that is what I was immediately thinking was puppy mill trouble. But, having visited the property, and met the parents as well as all the young dogs, and seeing that they are all friendly, happy and healthy, and that the pups are raised inside, I felt much better about it.

My guess is that one of her first dogs was a puppy mill dog with CKC papers and she couldn’t get AKC papers on them. But, the conformation of the dogs is good, and the temperament is good, and I don’t want to show, so it didn’t seem to me that I should care so much.

And my DH has dropped his concern now, and basically said “well, she’s doing a great job with the pups and they are being raised happily and healthy” and she does have them vet checked. I’m going to take mine to my vet first thing Saturday morning in addition.

I really want a pup that has been raised inside with the family, and these have, so I feel good about that, too.

Thanks for the input!

Libby

[Hannahsmom]

Continental Kennel Club is the one The puppy distribution chain, Hunt, uses. It means nothing, doesn’t support anything like dog shows which AKC and UKC do, and the breeder will not belong to the national club which will support things like health concerns for the breed nor do the breeders sign a code of ethics with the national club. Breeder is basically breeding for money, like the backyard breeders of old. You are getting a pet and the ‘registration’ supports the need for pet buyers looking for registered puppies but it truly means nothing. If you like the puppies and just want a pet, it is no different than Craig’s List or buying a puppy at your local market and you may have many years of joy with your dog.

[arapaloosa_lady]

[QUOTE=Hannahsmom;8431289]
If you like the puppies and just want a pet, it is no different than Craig’s List or buying a puppy at your local market and you may have many years of joy with your dog.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. You’re happy with how these puppies are being raised, they’re just not registered as purebred Scotties. Likely means there was something else in the mix further back in the line. Unless you’re dedicated to the purity of the bloodlines (which most people are not), it really doesn’t matter for a pet.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=arapaloosa_lady;8431322]
Exactly. You’re happy with how these puppies are being raised, they’re just not registered as purebred Scotties. Likely means there was something else in the mix further back in the line. Unless you’re dedicated to the purity of the bloodlines (which most people are not), it really doesn’t matter for a pet.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I think it’s just as likely someone just didn’t register a litter, and then the offspring of those puppies couldn’t be registered. There is no reason to assume that the bloodlines aren’t pure or even very good - but simply that they just weren’t registered somewhere along the line.

[danceronice]

If it’s CKC as in Continental Kennel Club? I’d be REALLY REALLY insistent about seeing the parents, seeing what tests and vaccines were done (and having PROOF in hand, not her word), and be very suspicious of any excuses. And then IF everything seemed non-sketchy, I might take the dog, depending on price (I wouldn’t pay half as much for CKC papers as AKC or UKC) and I would have it altered as I wouldn’t consider them suitable for breeding by definition.

[ElisLove]

I wonder if the parent dogs are on a spay and neuter contract, meaning that the breeder she bought them from has required her to spay/neuter the dogs and that they are not to be bred. Dogs on spay/neuter contracts are not allowed to have their offspring registered with the AKC. So this could be her breaking her spay/neuter contract and not being able to register them with the AKC.
If that is the truth then I would never buy from them no matter how much I liked the dog. The breeder(s) of the parent dogs tried to be responsible with selling their puppies and the person now breeding these dogs and selling the puppy violated the trust and contract of the breeder they bought from which is very shady.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=danceronice;8431341]
If it’s CKC as in Continental Kennel Club? I’d be REALLY REALLY insistent about seeing the parents, seeing what tests and vaccines were done (and having PROOF in hand, not her word), and be very suspicious of any excuses. And then IF everything seemed non-sketchy, I might take the dog, depending on price (I wouldn’t pay half as much for CKC papers as AKC or UKC) and I would have it altered as I wouldn’t consider them suitable for breeding by definition.[/QUOTE]

That’s a little extreme. She’s already seen the home, the parents, and the puppies. Whether or not health screening has been done, and/or whether you can trust that vaccines were conducted is not really connected to the registry of choice (or none). There are puppy mill and generally negligent AKC breeders, too. The OP already plans to neuter the dog.

[Where_sMyWhite]

[QUOTE=S1969;8430801]
I don’t know that there is ANY way to get an unknown dog registered with AKC, so it would be impossible to register the litter, and all subsequent offspring…[/QUOTE]

You sort of can if you want only performance titles on your dog. AKC calls it the Purebred Alternative Listing. You send in photos, where you got your dog and why you think your dog is whatever breed you think it is.

A PAL listing is good only for performance titles. They cannot be shown in conformation nor can the dog have regular AKC registrable offspring.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Where’sMyWhite;8431466]
A PAL listing is good only for performance titles. They cannot be shown in conformation nor can the dog have regular AKC registrable offspring.[/QUOTE]

Exactly - that’s a possible reason someone might choose to register with CKC. It could be someone that actually has a nice breeding line, but because someone didn’t register a dog in the past and then bred from it - nothing else can be registered.

It’s possible that the CKC breeder is breeding limited registration AKC dogs, although if the parents were CKC registered, then maybe not. Like I said, I’d consider a CKC registered puppy to essentially be “without papers.” Doesn’t mean it’s a bad dog.

[Paks]

found this

My dogs are registered with AKC… but I sell my ‘pet’ puppies with CKC papers. The average pet-home isn’t interested in showing or breeding but want papers in-hand to assure them they are purebred. If they question the CKC papers, then they have the choice of paying more money for me to pay the higher price of AKC and also being at AKC’s beck and call for inspections… which I already go through in my state twice a year. So then I say “it’s your choice… pay more and get the same dog if it makes you feel better”… otherwise suffice it to say that the parents are both AKC and CKC registered. It doesn’t matter what registry you are with when it come to ‘pet-puppies’… what matters is the breeder you are dealing with. Be bold,(not rude) , ask questions, and scrutinize the grounds, house, and health of the animals there… that will tell you more than any piece of paper.

here https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20121115104724AANFJCW 4th answer.