Breeders of Grand Prix Dressage horses?

Down Yonder,
Here’s what the Leatherdale’s website says about Devon L –
"June 13, 2012

Diane Creech and Devon L Nominated for London!

Equine Canada nominates Leatherdale Farms rider Diane Creech and Devon L to the Canadian Olympic Committee!

The wonderful Canadian rider Diane Creech and our Minnesota born gelding Devon L (DeNiro/EM Wibranda/Wolkenstein II) have been nominated by Equine Canada to the Canadian Olympic Committee for competition in the London Olympics. Following further qualifications we look forward to the official Canadian Olympic Team announcement for the final team on July 5th. Wishing Diane and Devon L success!"

Minnesota born doesn’t mean Minnesota bred,

http://www.hanoverian.org/awards-program/2010-year-end-awards-winners/2010-usdf-all-breeds-awards/

According to the ahs-bred by Hans Henning Decken

We’ve had one. He is responsible for my last 3 years of breeder’s incentive (you don’t earn much though but it’s still nice to get a check for making a breeding decision 12 years ago lol). We’ve had 3 reach up to S level in dressage which I think is a pretty good quota considering the size (or lack thereof) of our breeding program.
I agree with Sabine and Melissa who said that GP horses are made rather than born.
For instance the one that made it to GP had a full sibling who looked very promising up to M/A level but was then sold to a non-showing home. Nothing you can do to prevent it as a breeder.
I must also say that with the way the sport has taken in recent years I like it just as well to see our horses go to non-showing homes although it obviously makes for nice advertisement if your stock run around winning things as it is clearly still something buyers look for to determine quality no matter if they show themselves or not.

PS I know Alexandra has bred at least one who is looking to get there.

I am in Australia, but i have 2 broodmares who have both produced progeny competing at grand prix

both mares have the same grandmother, a mare called Faleten who was Farnese / Moltke breeding

One of these GP progeny is by WEltmeyer, the other is by a dutch import called Ilkay by Variant xx out of a RAmiro mare

This original mare FAleten also produced 5 stallion sons, which is alot for this country years ago, and all 5 sons were FEI dressage horses or world cup jumpers

Needless to say, i keep all fillies that come out of these 2 marelines

Paulamc

At my parent’s farm, back in the early eighties, we bred some that made it to Grand Prix dressage, a couple that went on to event at the 3* level and at least one that made it into the GP ring as a jumper. Mostly these were Trakehner-TB crosses.

My horse Maxwell was short listed for Canada in dressage, and the grey mare Gris Ciel was short listed in eventing, I think. Both were by the Trakehner stallion Kenner.

I am pretty sure that Schickendanz has bred several horses that made it to the top in dressage, as well as very successful jumpers (Abdullah, remember him?). These again were mainly Trakehners.

W Charlot Farms in Ontario has for years bred very successful jumpers (Rio Grande springs to mind), and Viva’s Salieri represented Canada at the Pan Am Games with Tom Dvorak, and is now schooling GP very nicely. Viva Voltaire actually had two get at the Pan Ams, as Esther Mortimer rode Viva’s Verover for Guatemala.

Another local breeder that has much success both with their stallions and with their youngstock is Pangea Farms, where they stand Harvard.

There are lots of successful breeders, and lots of very talented horses being bred in North America. What really determines whether or not a horse makes it to the top levels in dressage (or eventing or jumping) is TRAINING. No horse gets there on bloodlines alone.

Unfortunately many well bred and talented horses do not ever get the sort of training that will help them live up to their potential. And sometimes, not so well bred nor so talented horses make it all the way because they DO receive excellent training and management. My (now retired) GP horse by Garner’s Bid (a Paint stallion) was not a talented critter :-), but we still got there and achieved modest success in Grand Prix.

I would definitely say that training and management are bigger factors than the bloodlines and god-given talent, although it is certainly easier if you start with “the right stuff”. Hoping this is true when I start my 2012 filly (Hohenstein/Prince Thatch XX out of Don Primero/Adrian)! My 3 year old by Sir Wanabi out of a Feinbrand/Akzent II mare also has “the right stuff” and so far is the easiest baby I have ever worked with.

I think one of the reasons that many talented and agreeable youngsters never end up with the top trainers in this country is that breeders in North America tend to sell them early, instead of placing them with trainers for development and to promote the breeding farm. I have seen some gorgeous horses at shows being ridden, often quite poorly, alas, by their owners, and it does nothing to promote the breeding farm that produced the horse(s).

Just some rambling - I certainly appreciate the efforts of NA breeders to produce quality youngsters!

Liz

There are lots of successful breeders, and lots of very talented horses being bred in North America. What really determines whether or not a horse makes it to the top levels in dressage (or eventing or jumping) is TRAINING. No horse gets there on bloodlines alone.
So, so, so true! You can breed top quality horses, but getting them to GP is very expensive, as has been said, and it takes a LOT of luck to get them to the right person. Most of the people who have bred horses that made it to GP have not owned them much past starting them - if even that long.

In this country, it’s very difficult to even get people to look at American bred horses - even with the same bloodlines as those at the top in Europe. Many times it’s an amateur who thinks that a horse with top bloodline will get them past 1st level - and then they find they cannot ride a horse with the pizazz to get them to the top. :confused:

I have on now for whom I have been told by several good judges, that he is definitely a GP horse who hasn’t gotten there yet and to take very, very good care of him. His rider is learning the movements at the same time as the horse, but the horse is learning faster. The horse has all the movements and just needs the polish and the right rider, but . . . . . .

I agree with what Liz Steacie wrote.

I might add to it that there’s not (at least in Canada) a lot of riders I would trust in sending my 3yo for training and climbing levels. They are almost non existent. Half a dozen shows FEI YH but then, it is rare to see them PSG or higher couple of years later. So what happened to them? It is not reassuring.

Or you have experienced GP riders, but they won’t take youngsters. Then you can add the price of training (running between 1200 to 1800$/month last time I did some inquiries) with the very few who will take youngsters, and train them properly, in a reasonnable time frame (doing level 2 at 8yo IS NOT the way to reach Grand Prix, neither it is to have a 4yo brain burned for the FEI YH classes that will, at 7yo, be pissed of of his job because pushed too hard too young), and then oops, you are not competitive (sale price wise) anymore with same 3yo green broke available in Germany.

Here the few who are imho good trainers that can bring horses all the way usually shop in Europe without even give any consideration to YH bred here. Liz might be one of the RARE exceptions who is willing to trust local breeders, and it is all in her honour, and I really hope she will kick asses one day with her Sir Wanabi and RCMP bred filly.

I can’t wait to see the day where the FEI requires riders to ride horses bred and born in their own country in international events like Olympics and WEG. What a good hand it would give to breeders and incentive to FEI riders to buy in their own country! THEN you’ll see LOT MORE GP horse bred by north american breeders.

[QUOTE=Spike;6387148]
I agree with what Liz Steacie wrote.

Here the few who are imho good trainers that can bring horses all the way usually shop in Europe without even give any consideration to YH bred here. Liz might be one of the RARE exceptions who is willing to trust local breeders, and it is all in her honour, and I really hope she will kick asses one day with her Sir Wanabi and RCMP bred filly.

.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Spike :-). Already kicked some butt last weekend at the CDI3* Blainville, with my Hanoverian-RCMP bred (Santorini/Akzent II/Lanthan) mare, 2nd in PSG, 1st in Intermediaire I :-). So proud of this young mare (just 8 years old) who is so rideable and kind and talented too! She also won both the PSG and the I1 at the CDI1* in Ottawa last month, so she’s consistent too!

FWIW, I very rarely show the youngsters in the FEI YH classes, as I think it puts too much pressure on them at a very young age.

Liz

That isn’t rambling. It is the simple, unvarnished truth of the matter. Well said. :yes::yes::yes:

I agree with lots of the above. It isn’t the horses that are lacking the talent in NA, it is , for the most part, the riders. Go to any show, there are 50 people in training level and then once you hit second that number drops drastically. And second is a farrrrr way from GP.

But at the end of the day, breeders won’t spend the money. They have a nice youngster and they want 60 days with the aim of selling it. Almost all the really nice youngsters we have had in here for training are here also to be sold because the breeders just want to recoup costs/make money. Or they want you to take and train the horse for free because it is nice, but to me if you believe in the quality of the horse and you want to develop it then you should also believe it is worth investing in. I get that it is an expensive endeavor and I understand why breeders sell early if they can but again, reality is, many of the most talented horses in NA will never make it past 1st level for this reason.

“In this country, it’s very difficult to even get people to look at American bred horses - even with the same bloodlines as those at the top in Europe.”

I’ve put together a group of people to buy a very special six or seven-year-old for me for the future while some of our youngsters grow up. Of course I’m all about supporting the US bred horses but I’ve been hard pressed to find a single one for sale with the quality of TRAINING that I’m looking for. THIS is a huge reason people go to Europe. For the most part horses started here aren’t taught to use their bodies well so even though it may be a full sibling to something equally as nice in Europe, if we don’t have people starting them well and teaching them to go nicely to the contact and over the back it’s a moot point.

[QUOTE=StarDoozer;6402376]
“In this country, it’s very difficult to even get people to look at American bred horses - even with the same bloodlines as those at the top in Europe.”

I’ve put together a group of people to buy a very special six or seven-year-old for me for the future while some of our youngsters grow up. Of course I’m all about supporting the US bred horses but I’ve been hard pressed to find a single one for sale with the quality of TRAINING that I’m looking for. THIS is a huge reason people go to Europe. For the most part horses started here aren’t taught to use their bodies well so even though it may be a full sibling to something equally as nice in Europe, if we don’t have people starting them well and teaching them to go nicely to the contact and over the back it’s a moot point.[/QUOTE]


This post illustrates the challenges the US is up against. StarDoozer is a talented young trainer (Brentina Cup, Gold Medalist) who has ridden at the national level, has a good amount of experience training young horses as well as stallions, and whose mother is a highly talented and reputable breeder and trainer. Yet, in this post, she seems to indicate she is unwilling or simply prefers not to have developed the young horse she seeks and would rather “put together a group of people to buy” for her such a horse from Europe.

She says she is “hard pressed” to find the quality of training on the horse she desires. This begs the question, why is a trainer such as herself not doing this? If she doesn’t possess the qualifications necessary to develop a talented 3 year old into the horse that she seeks, then who does?

The US does have the quality of horses: there are many very good horses now, even if fewer really top horses. Elite athletes are rare, that’s why they’re special. They need to be sought out, just as is the case with European trainers seeking European horses. The really good ones don’t stay available for long and once in training, become a hot commodity.

The poster says she is looking for a “very special six or seven year old”. One assumes this means a horse for the Developing classes, one who has not only the talent but has had the systematic and correct training under his/her belt as is much more common in Europe; a six or seven year old that is mentally and physically ready for FEI work (as would be the case if a horse had finished the FEI 6 year old classes - a jumping off point to PSG if utilized correctly). Again, she could be doing this training herself rather than gathering investors. Perhaps she could offer breeders incentives to train their talented young horses, rather than place full blame on the quality of training youngsters receive here in the US.

Before the names Wolfram Wittig and Uta Graf became known on the international competition circuit, these trainers were quietly working in their yards, breeding, starting and correctly bringing along talented young horses without the public accolades that most US trainers seem to seek. This brings another key point; good trainers of young horses in Europe are highly respected. They make a good living and are sought out. Some of them go on to public arena, but it isn’t necessarily considered a prerequisite to be considered “successful”. Too many young trainers here ( and sadly too many experienced trainers) seem to need to be “out there” on superstars in the sexy classes: FEI Young Horse, Developing Horse and mostly, FEI. Rather than doing the work themselves, (and educating owners to support the time it takes to develop a horse through the levels) they would rather gather a group of investors to buy the horse for them and “have it now”. Until more emphasis (and reward) is put on the value of correct training, and less on the glitter and shine of competitive success, we will lag behind Europe. Our equestrian sport governing bodies -as well as professionals- have a responsibility to educate their clients this way.

I also disagree with StarDoozer’s point that we do not have the professionals here capable of starting and developing young horses correctly. Still not enough, but there are most definitely now a good number of very qualified young dressage horse trainers, who do know how to start youngsters well, “teaching them to go nicely to the contact and over the back” etc. There is a problem of cost, yes, and sometimes an unwillingness of breeders to send their young horses away to get their good start. Who could blame them? It represents an enormous expense and risk for a breeder to send their very best youngsters sometimes far away with a good amount of risk involved. In the current scenario, it may make better sense to sell at a good profit early, perhaps to a home where such a horse may not have his talents utilized but will hopefully be happy -and put those profits back into the breeding operation. This is, in itself, a major challenge for US breeders, putting aside any issue of training.

I understand if an Amateur would have written this particular response to the original post, for the reason that an Amateur may not have the ability to train a potential GP horse. But it is troubling that the comment comes from a talented young professional. This underscores the issue of trainers who seem to seek the spotlight on a superstar horse; instead more effort should be made collectively by the good US breeders, owners AND trainers towards creating a mutually beneficial system that rewards good training, develops talented horses, and with luck, wins a few blue ribbons. The original poster’s question was which breeders here have produced GP horses. As long as our own qualified trainers are not developing talented US bred horses, we will remain behind the Europeans in producing sufficient numbers of domestically bred GP horses.

I am interested to hear the numbers from Hilltop and Iron Spring if anyone has that info. My best guess is that Hilda has produced the most GP horses. And as impressive as that is, I think it has more to do with the machine that is Hilda and her working slaves, oops students, than the quality necessarily.

oranges–I think you have a good point. A lot of the so called FEi trainers DON’T train from the bottom because it is so much easier, and they make more money, buying big impressive stuff from Europe already trained.

Before Candico jumped in, I was going to say exactly that. And I agree with your estimation as to why–determination and, um, the ability, to, um, get people to work for you. I would say that about Chelsey Sibley, too. (Except not the slaves.) When I was training my Appy in the park, Chelsey was riding her horses down the street and doing the same thing. She JUST KEEPS GOING, and to quote a friend, can make anything piaffe and passage. Same goes for Hilda. What do they have in common? They take all horses and do the best they can with them and get them up the levels.

Anyone who is a decent rider should be able to get most decent horses up the levels and do GP. Now, it may not be the world beater, but it will be there. These aren’t necessarily the easiest rides, but that’s what dressage is supposed to be, making the best of any horses.

It seems to me too many people are out there looking for the perfect horse, or saddle or gig or trainer and THEN they can go go GP. If you’re a decent rider, you should be able to make it, and I think that’s it. We have too many riders just looking for something easier, not the hard work. A lot of Hilda’s ex “people” have brought horses to GP not because they were necessarily the best horses, but because you don’t so no to Hilda, so damn well better figure out how to ride it! There’s something to be said for that.

And, yes (again) I have done it, with a lot less than most people, as in money, talent, and time. I brought my Appy to GP, sort of, and the first horse I bred BY MYSELF. Seriously. I am not that talented. If I can do it, so can a lot of people, and I sure ain’t going to Europe to buy horses.

I can understand the frustration of breeders being expressed on this thread but also think Stardoozer is being given a harder time than she deserves. We have no knowledge of why she is looking for a 6 or 7yo. We do know she can produce young horses from scratch. So without knowing why she is looking for a 6-7yo (and boy, oh boy, the good ones cost $$$$$ at that age!) the message in her post is that there are very few correctly produced young horses available to buy. That’s a big problem.

I’ve got a different sort of problem. I have an incredibly talented Jazz x Flemmingh 4yo that has been produced correctly and slowly. She does have 3 world class paces and because she’s been given time, she also has a good brain. As you’d expect from her bloodlines she is not an amateurs horse but she has the quality and ability to be a seriously competitive professionals horse. Normally I’d bring her on myself but she’s a 7 day a week horse and I can’t ride that often. So she’s being professionally produced by an eventer as, right now, she doesn’t need to learn dressage, she needs to learn forwards, loose and a swinging back. My problem is I don’t have the right contacts to get the price this horse should be. She was 3rd highest ranked dressage horse in the UK at 3 and is eligible Ster with the KWPN when she does her IBOP test.

Which brings me to the point of this post. It’s all about networking. The Germans and Dutch have developed the right contacts over many decades and now to some extent their network is self perpetuating. It’s no accident that Paul Schockemohle has several senior people employed full time who do nothing but networking in order to get the right people to his auctions.

The difficult part is working out where do you start when you have few contacts. How to get from here to there?

I agree with SS, networking is a big part of it. I also can see Stardoozer’s points.

If you want your horses to end up with top riders you need to put some real thought into how you will do that. You can’t just breed a nice horse and then think top riders are going to come and beat your door down to get this young horse (unless you have super connections). You need to invest in getting the youngster backed well and started well. The reality is that the vast majority of talented riders in this country aren’t going to want to buy a three year old out of the field. The feeling the horse gives it’s rider is very important to most pro’s so they are going to want to sit on the horse before buying it. I always think that if the breeder doesn’t think their own horse is worth investing in (ie they won’t put the money in) then it probably isn’t!

I also think some breeders are out of touch with what a really good horse is. Go on any sales site and check out the pages of “incredible moving” young horses that are anything but. Then you find a horse that is quite nice but not spectacular and it is priced like it is the next Totilas. We have plans in the next few years to (hopefully) purchase a quality 4-5 yr old stallion and I am guessing we will be looking overseas for the reasons Stardoozer mentioned (though of course I would be thrilled to find something here). The buyer will usually be willing to look around here but most aren’t going to go to incredible lengths to try and find the horse they are looking for. If they get a video that is blurry and shaky, or bad photos, or see poor riding ect ect they are going to move onto the next.

At the end of the day, the onus is on the breeder to showcase the talent of their young horses to the market!

In Europe it is not the breeders that sell the promising youngsters, it’s the young horse trainers, a level in between breeders and competitive riders, and with that a level we really don’t have in the US.

In the US the best thing you can do as a breeder is place your very good youngsters with very good riders, a process that gets refined the longer you are in the business. As much as you will hear folks say that breeders think all of their horses are great, there are just as many riders/trainers that think they are more talented than they are. In Europe there is a well-defined career/learning path to being a horse trainer while in the US anybody can put a shingle out saying that they train horses. In my 25+ years of breeding horses in the US I had to figure this out the hard way and it has cost me lots of money and wasted time and horse talent. And while there are a few places in the US that breed, raise and train horses and have even taken a few of them to FEI levels, they are typically not the ones you read about in the news winning the big competitions in Florida and other places.

At this point my money is on making some intelligent decisions when picking your young horse trainers and, if you really believe in a youngster and want to gamble on his/her talent, make sure you have the right trainer that not only will do a good job with this horse, but also understands the financial aspects of your venture. Good luck! :slight_smile:

P.S.: I have a 2-year old now that I think may have what it takes to go to the BIG competitions and I have put out my feelers on who will take over the ride once he’s under saddle. Time will tell if I’m doing the right thing, but at this point I feel somewhat confident. Wish me luck! :slight_smile:

At least here in Northern California I know of half a dozen or more wonderful young horse riders. They are eventers and/or don’t have “big” names in the dressage world, but they exist and do a fabulous job. Sometimes I think it’s the owners that overlook many of these trainers though because they don’t have a name, or don’t want to spend the money and wait the time it takes to really put a good start on the horse.

“Yet, in this post, she seems to indicate she is unwilling or simply prefers not to have developed the young horse she seeks and would rather “put together a group of people to buy” for her such a horse from Europe.”

Oranges, read the post: “I’ve put together a group of people to buy a very special six or seven-year-old for me for the future while some of our youngsters grow up” . Not to mention she already has brought not only a US bred horse but a horse her mother bred all the way to competing at GP internationally, and with good scores!

I think it’s great that a trainer at StarDoozers level is willing to let her young horses take the time to develop and grow instead of pushing them in an effort to get to GP as fast as possible. IMO many GP dressage trainers break more good ones than they produce in an effort to get to the top. Being at the international level requires you make headlines and have horses to show through-out the levels to keep sponsors.

“If I can do it, so can a lot of people, and I sure ain’t going to Europe to buy horses.” There’s a big difference between muddling through a GP test to a 50 and competing internationally with scores in the low 70’s and the horse is part of that equation.

I think the point is that we have the breeding in place but not the system to get them going. From several other posts and a quick look at what’s for sale we have the horses in the US, but not the trainers. That’s not to say there aren’t any trainers that can do it in the US but they are much fewer than in Europe.