Breeders of Grand Prix Dressage horses?

[Beentheredonethat]

Justmystyle–MOST horses and people aren’t competing internationally in the 70’s. What, a handful? Seriously? So, what are breeders breeding for? The hope that they get one of the handful of people who will compete internationally in the 70’s who may buy a horse once every few years, or MOST people?

BS. People are quite capable here to do more than “muddle through a GP test to 50.” There are PLENTY of horses that can do the job. The world beaters that everyone thinks are the one in a million usually don’t make it anyway. People are MUCH more capable riders than they used to be and CAN bring up their horses, it’s just like so many people are telling them they need a magical trainer or horse to do it. The BS of judging aside, I was at a local show yesterday and saw tons of super capable riders who can and have brought their horses up the levels and those well on their way.

I think maybe we don’t have the great number of great trainers, but we have a lot of riders who are good and work hard who are perfectly capable, with a little help, of bringing the horses up the levels. I think the main problem we have is too many people telling everyone they need to do it just right with just the right trainer starting and just the right horse. So what if you’re not perfect? If you’re not planning on being in the Olympics, what does it matter? Isn’t it more important to LEARN and TRAIN, since dressage means “training,” not “buy the most expensive perfect horse and best trainer and have them train the horse for you to ride.”

[JustMyStyle]

My point was that a rider with olympic goals (that are reasonable), such as StarDoozer, needs a very special horse. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. Or with saying she can’t find one in the US because the lack of good basic training. Oranges was saying if she got to GP on a not perfect horse plenty of people can get by with-out going to Europe, which I totally agree with. But she said so in reference (at least that’s how I read it) to a rider that is trying to compete at an international level, and that’s where it’s not good enough to take an average horse and hope in time you can sort of ride a GP test.

I would also think if you can put together a group of investors to buy a special 6/7yr old in Europe, when your own mom is a good breeder here in the US, you really can’t find what you want in the US.

And I don’t think the people breeding GP dressage horses are “average” breeders trying to sell their horses to “most” people.

[Florida_Fan]

good thoughts

[QUOTE=Liz Steacie;6386984]
At my parent’s farm, back in the early eighties, we bred some that made it to Grand Prix dressage, a couple that went on to event at the 3* level and at least one that made it into the GP ring as a jumper. Mostly these were Trakehner-TB crosses.

My horse Maxwell was short listed for Canada in dressage, and the grey mare Gris Ciel was short listed in eventing, I think. Both were by the Trakehner stallion Kenner.

I am pretty sure that Schickendanz has bred several horses that made it to the top in dressage, as well as very successful jumpers (Abdullah, remember him?). These again were mainly Trakehners.

W Charlot Farms in Ontario has for years bred very successful jumpers (Rio Grande springs to mind), and Viva’s Salieri represented Canada at the Pan Am Games with Tom Dvorak, and is now schooling GP very nicely. Viva Voltaire actually had two get at the Pan Ams, as Esther Mortimer rode Viva’s Verover for Guatemala.

Another local breeder that has much success both with their stallions and with their youngstock is Pangea Farms, where they stand Harvard.

There are lots of successful breeders, and lots of very talented horses being bred in North America. What really determines whether or not a horse makes it to the top levels in dressage (or eventing or jumping) is TRAINING. No horse gets there on bloodlines alone.

Unfortunately many well bred and talented horses do not ever get the sort of training that will help them live up to their potential. And sometimes, not so well bred nor so talented horses make it all the way because they DO receive excellent training and management. My (now retired) GP horse by Garner’s Bid (a Paint stallion) was not a talented critter :-), but we still got there and achieved modest success in Grand Prix.

I would definitely say that training and management are bigger factors than the bloodlines and god-given talent, although it is certainly easier if you start with “the right stuff”. Hoping this is true when I start my 2012 filly (Hohenstein/Prince Thatch XX out of Don Primero/Adrian)! My 3 year old by Sir Wanabi out of a Feinbrand/Akzent II mare also has “the right stuff” and so far is the easiest baby I have ever worked with.

I think one of the reasons that many talented and agreeable youngsters never end up with the top trainers in this country is that breeders in North America tend to sell them early, instead of placing them with trainers for development and to promote the breeding farm. I have seen some gorgeous horses at shows being ridden, often quite poorly, alas, by their owners, and it does nothing to promote the breeding farm that produced the horse(s).

Just some rambling - I certainly appreciate the efforts of NA breeders to produce quality youngsters!

Liz[/QUOTE]

Very good comment!

[reidsporthorses.nz]

[QUOTE=Perfect Pony;6409987]
At least here in Northern California I know of half a dozen or more wonderful young horse riders. They are eventers and/or don’t have “big” names in the dressage world, but they exist and do a fabulous job. Sometimes I think it’s the owners that overlook many of these trainers though because they don’t have a name, or don’t want to spend the money and wait the time it takes to really put a good start on the horse.[/QUOTE]

Here is where I think US breeders need to make a distinction.
There are people who will ride young horses (and do a good job ie horse goes forward, is safe and has good experiences)
And there are Young Horse (as in FEI YH) Riders- people who can showcase a potential FEI quality YH both by teaching them to go correctly with an eye for tye GP and showing them in the YH
Tests.

We are lacking the latter, and it seems like in general US breeders are much less likely to make the investment that the cost of training with these riders

[Perfect_Pony]

[QUOTE=reidsporthorses.nz;6415000]
Here is where I think US breeders need to make a distinction.
There are people who will ride young horses (and do a good job ie horse goes forward, is safe and has good experiences)
And there are Young Horse (as in FEI YH) Riders- people who can showcase a potential FEI quality YH both by teaching them to go correctly with an eye for tye GP and showing them in the YH
Tests.

We are lacking the latter, and it seems like in general US breeders are much less likely to make the investment that the cost of training with these riders[/QUOTE]

This is true, however I have met two amazing young horse riders here in CA that both have gone to the Young Horse Championships (one in just the US, one in both the US and in Europe). One is the asst trainer of one of the top GP riders in the country, and one is simply busting her ass riding almost anything. The other 20-somethings I know could easily have the talent to be riding horses at the YH Championships if given the support and opportunity.

They are out there, you just have to support them with your horses and your money.

[EquusMagnificus]

[QUOTE=Perfect Pony;6415165]

They are out there, you just have to support them with your horses and your money.[/QUOTE]

This. I often read the argument that training costs money, so breeders want to sell their foals young. But, as said earlier in this thread, this does nothing to promote the horse or the breeding program. Unfortunately.

I think breeders need to start factoring or planning financially for the breaking/training/minimal showing of their young horses in order to be competitive. Consider it the cost of doing business as much as breeding and upkeep fees…

That’s what’s killing us! Riders come back over and over with the same comment: for the same amount of money, or less, they can find horses ready to step into the show ring in Europe. They are telling us what they want! They want horses that have been appropriately started or ready to show. Now, we need to listen and adapt to what the client wants!

I’m not saying it’s easy, heck, I am not breeding my mare this year because I feel she needs a break, and especially, my wallet needs a break. I know I have a filly who’ll be three years old next year and I want to have some funds or facilities to train her well. Hence, no foal for me in 2013.

[candico]

Just wanted to add in Liz’s defense, not only can she see at least 20 to 30 horses that could fit the bill for her during a ten day shopping trip, many will have had enough show experience at those super hectic European warm up environments to know which ones thrive at that stress level, and which ones need to at least be coddled and protected. Not that a horse with the right person can’t learn to be okay with showing, but if you are going to put the $$$ and training, a horse who loves to show off is worth double one that needs Gastroguard and a babysitter. I think it is Hinneman who doesn’t bother with horses who don’t travel well.