As I read some of the responses on threads about breeding for UL Pro as opposed to Amateur I have some questions about that.
Does Pro in your mind equal skill level or just that Pro means you get paid to ride/show?
Does Amateur connote lack of ability or just for other reasons they don’t get paid to ride?
Would you sell what you consider a Pro ride to an amateur?
Would you sell to anyone as long as they can pay?
TIA
Not a breeder, but I think for all intents and purposes, “amateur” always = less skilled rider and one that needs a horse who can take a joke…at least when it comes to conversational definitions. And this goes in all walks of horse life. I’m an amateur who rides at a high level, but I still use that phrase all of the time (“amateur proof” or an “ammy ride”).
As an amateur who has bought many young horses, I’ve never had a breeder question my ability to ride a horse because I’m not technically a pro. Again, the word is used for simplicity’s sake and not always in a literal sense.
Amateur simply means - not paid to ride/train. Some AA riders are better then some Pro riders. I would absolutely sell a young horse to an AA rider - as long as they had the skills (or worked with a Pro that had the skills). I would not (purposefully) sell a horse into a situation where the horse couldn’t succeed. I have talked people out of buying (or even looking at) my horses because I didn’t think it was the right match.
But AA versus Pro has nothing to do with skills. I know plenty of Pro riders who teach up-down lessons and have never ridden above 1st or 2nd level. And I know several AA riders who are really skilled, talented riders.
Having said that - when I use the term “great Ammie horse”, I’m referring more to skill level - to me, an Ammie horse has a good attitude, a level mind, and a degree of “forgiveness”. Oh, and doesn’t have back breaking or hip wrenching gaits.
The original discussion referred to the skills necessary to ride such or such type of horse. So when we refer to an amateur horse, we egnerally refer to a horse that can be riden and perform well under an amateur’s saddle.
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8934807]
Amateur simply means - not paid to ride/train. Some AA riders are better then some Pro riders. I would absolutely sell a young horse to an AA rider - as long as they had the skills (or worked with a Pro that had the skills). I would not (purposefully) sell a horse into a situation where the horse couldn’t succeed. I have talked people out of buying (or even looking at) my horses because I didn’t think it was the right match.
But AA versus Pro has nothing to do with skills. I know plenty of Pro riders who teach up-down lessons and have never ridden above 1st or 2nd level. And I know several AA riders who are really skilled, talented riders.
Having said that - when I use the term “great Ammie horse”, I’m referring more to skill level - to me, an Ammie horse has a good attitude, a level mind, and a degree of “forgiveness”. Oh, and doesn’t have back breaking or hip wrenching gaits.[/QUOTE]
Agree 100 %^^^^
Mystic Oak is technically correct, but PNW is correct in that it entirely depends on the context.
I’m a pro because I teach a little on occasion, and get paid to ride, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot, flatting show horses as part of my job as a groom, or riding young horses when I’m working for breeders. I refer to myself as a professional e level rider, and in fact horses I’ve started have won young horse classes, both in dressage and jumpers…with a pro in the show ring. A horse I started was referred to by a pan am rider as the best started four year old in the mid Atlantic. At various point I’ve spent lots of time on the back of fei show jumpers and dressage horses. But I can’t finish an upper level horse, can ask for piaffe on a horse who knows it, but can’t train it. I cry when my rider makes me jump something. I don’t ride crazy. I’m very careful what I get on.
I am a professional.
PNW is an FEI show jumper who develops her own horses. She’s a way, way better rider than I am; she is an amateur.
But we can both use the phrase ammie ride/pro ride and understand that that means something different.
It’s an industry where anybody can hang a shingle and be a pro regardless of their riding ability or book knowledge.
I wouldn’t sell a baby to anybody with cash because I’d be afraid they would jack up the foal/young horse and I’d feel obligated to take it back.
[QUOTE=ladyj79;8935058]
Mystic Oak is technically correct, but PNW is correct in that it entirely depends on the context.
I’m a pro because I teach a little on occasion, and get paid to ride, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot, flatting show horses as part of my job as a groom, or riding young horses when I’m working for breeders. I refer to myself as a professional e level rider, and in fact horses I’ve started have won young horse classes, both in dressage and jumpers…with a pro in the show ring. A horse I started was referred to by a pan am rider as the best started four year old in the mid Atlantic. At various point I’ve spent lots of time on the back of fei show jumpers and dressage horses. But I can’t finish an upper level horse, can ask for piaffe on a horse who knows it, but can’t train it. I cry when my rider makes me jump something. I don’t ride crazy. I’m very careful what I get on.
I am a professional.
PNW is an FEI show jumper who develops her own horses. She’s a way, way better rider than I am; she is an amateur.
But we can both use the phrase ammie ride/pro ride and understand that that means something different.[/QUOTE]
Great explanation.
I cringe a bit though at simply defining a pro as anyone who accepts money to ride or give lessons.
Case in point, there is a barn near me where I go for arena time occasionally. I bumped into an older teenager there the other day who apparently is a working student for some event rider out near Middleburg, and a pretty ambitious young rider. Anyway, I made polite chit chat with her while she was riding in the arena the other day on another boarder’s OTTB gelding (who is a completely neglected mess). She talked about wanting to ride more horses and hack out on our neighborhood trails, and I said my broodmare could always use a little extra exercise and was a super fun ride on the trail - I’d be happy to let her take her out now or then. I felt sorry for the girl that she was stuck riding this mess of an OTTB gelding. And for what it’s worth, she’s a really nice mare who is open right now. The kid comes right back at me and informs me it will cost me $20 a ride for her to “condition” my broodmare - her rates have gone up now that she has her Pony Club C-2.
I told her it was nice chatting, congrats on her rating, but I don’t pay neighborhood kids to take my horses on trail rides. Seriously though… I can’t imagine having behaved like that as a teenager at a barn if someone had offered me a ride on a nice horse. Pony club is not what it used to be…
I really don’t care how one is classified as a rider based on the USEF definitions when we’re talking about selling horses. While I can certainly see the arguments for and against each classification, in the end I’m going to sell for the best case scenario/best match if at all humanly possible. Skill, personality, common sense and dedication are far more important to me than what one might or might not get paid for riding/teaching/etc. I’ve turned away both amateurs and pros as prospective buyers in the past.
I try to breed for the amateur market and to me that means a level headed, sane, not overly reactive mount with both rideable gaits and a relatively trainable/receptive mind… and my preference is to breed for bold/inquisitive types. I back/start my own so it has to be something I want to throw my leg over and put up with in the end because I will take them back.
Thanks for your replies.
I let a young person ride my horse cause i thought he could use the exercise and the young person could enjoy riding again.
One day a mutual friend got a text message from yp that basically said
“Next time it will be 20.00. I can no longer ride for free.”
Whaaattt? Really?
The topic interested me because the distinction between breeders of different disciplines.
Most of the breeders of Warmbloods marketed to potential dressage riders.
But then when eventing dropped roads and tracks from competition eventer started looking at Warmbloods as well.
Hunter Jumpers also started buying Warmbloods for Equitation.
So there is s much larger market of American buyers for European Warmbloods.
There is an apparent snob factor for a lot of US buyers regarding Warmbloods. A woman I know imported a Warmblood for her talented teenage offspring because she couldn’t find anything good enough in the US.
I know of another woman who imported a dressage horse because her trainer told her she couldn’t win at shows with an American bred horse. The judges wouldn’t score her high enough.
She had her trainer go with her and they picked out a mare.
Turns out the horse was too much for her and she got too scared to ride her and is now playing musical trainers.
I’m not judging or making fun. It’s their money and their decisions.
It just strikes me as a little sad that Americans feel like they have to go to Europe to get good horses when there are gems to be found here.
[QUOTE=AnastasiaBeaverhousen;8935694]
Thanks for your replies.
I let a young person ride my horse cause i thought he could use the exercise and the young person could enjoy riding again.
One day a mutual friend got a text message from yp that basically said
“Next time it will be 20.00. I can no longer ride for free.”
Whaaattt? Really?[/QUOTE]
Glad to know it isn’t just me scratching my head on this stuff.
What on earth does the ammy v. Pro topic have to do with imported v. Domestic?
I have been both at various points. All my horses have been domestic. I used to ride for a wonderful trainer who imported sales horses (jumpers) regularly. Confused as to how this topic has veered in the last 2 posts because import status is totally irrelevant to the question of whether one is an ammy or pro.
If you don’t want to pay kids to ride, say “no thanks!” When they tell you what their “fee” is. I have a farm and it is very hard to find anyone who wants to ride for/with me with regularity for saddle time. Kids are so scheduled. So I just do it myself since I won’t pay to have a less experienced person ride mine.
By the way, I would take a nice domestic bred WB jumper if you are offering! I am an ammy again now. Lol.
Ammy vs. Pro (at least as far as H/J)
Well there are the rules, which are pretty clear. Aside from that:
First of all, Ammy riders only jump ‘so’ high. AA, Low, High. Amateurs buy horses that they keep for quite awhile…they aren’t typically looking for a horse to ‘flip’ at a profit.
Pros are either buying horses to flip at a profit (ie sell to amateurs or maybe other pros, or are looking for a top level horse that can advance their own competitive career. In the first instance they will look for a very rideable horse with enough capability…in the second, a very capable horse, ability is paramount.
There are ‘high level’ amateurs, and ‘low level pros,’ so wether one is an ammy or a pro is not enough information to determine whether they are ‘good’ or not or how good they might be.
[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8937579]
What on earth does the ammy v. Pro topic have to do with imported v. Domestic?
I have been both at various points. All my horses have been domestic. I used to ride for a wonderful trainer who imported sales horses (jumpers) regularly. Confused as to how this topic has veered in the last 2 posts because import status is totally irrelevant to the question of whether one is an ammy or pro.
If you don’t want to pay kids to ride, say “no thanks!” When they tell you what their “fee” is. I have a farm and it is very hard to find anyone who wants to ride for/with me with regularity for saddle time. Kids are so scheduled. So I just do it myself since I won’t pay to have a less experienced person ride mine.
By the way, I would take a nice domestic bred WB jumper if you are offering! I am an ammy again now. Lol.[/QUOTE]
I apologize for not being clear.
There were two threads that I was following and they both made me think in terms of breeding for the pro market as opposed to the ammy market.
I’ve seen some threads about amateurs looking for UL prospects and many of them seemed surprised at US prices. So they were considering outside of the US.
And when I consider the question of a what a pro looks for in a project as opposed to an amateur I think there is more than one kind of pro.
The difference between pro and ammy and imported and domestic are linked in my mind because the reading from the threads suggests that at the amateurs are willing to go through the process of importing an UL prospect.
Granted, I have not seen any threads where pros have been looking for UL prospects so I can’t comment on that aspect of it. Pros usually have connections and networks so their criteria is different.
If you’ve managed to stay awake through my meanderings I thank you.
I hope this clears things up a little.
I am not a breeder or a pro but I enjoy reading the threads and learning about pedigrees. Especially TBs.
Thank you to the people who responded.
[QUOTE=AnastasiaBeaverhousen;8939349]
And when I consider the question of a what a pro looks for in a project as opposed to an amateur I think there is more than one kind of pro.
.[/QUOTE]
I’d also say there is more then one type of AA rider! A few broad categories might be:
(1) The perpetual Training Level rider who aspires to maybe do First level some day, or may not even show (or show rated shows) at all. This is a huge population of riders - loving homes but not in a serious lesson program, and more motivated by the love of their horse then the competition world.
(2) The rider in full training who takes regular lessons and a pro rides their horse, and they are seriously into competing. This is the vast majority of the riders that show up at USDF Regionals every year (at least in Region 7).
(3) The rider that is serious, but limited budget, gets the ocassional lesson/clinic, does most of “it” on their own, and is scraping their way up the levels.
(4) The “elite” AA who has the money to buy schoolmasters, ride with the best, probably has multiple horses, and has serious ambitions. This is a rarer type, but I know of several of these riders. Some are more talented then others, obviously.
I’m sure there are other categories too!
Thanks for that. I am definitely the first category.
I never have been able to take lessons consistently. And I don’t want to show. So i am just learning to be content with what I have. Which is a lot.
My horse ain’t hatin me for it.
I would love to be that rarest of riders: An ammy good enough to be a pro.
Sigh.
[QUOTE=Virginia Horse Mom;8935764]
Glad to know it isn’t just me scratching my head on this stuff.[/QUOTE]
HA! There’s several people I’ve permitted on my mare as I’ve been developing her. There’s a total of 3 (maybe) that I would pay to ride her within a 3 hour radius.
One of them is the person who coaches me.
It isn’t that complicated. When people are talking about an “ammy” ride…generally they mean easier, straight forward and forgiving.
When they say UL Pro…generally they mean a lot of talent in the horse but he/she may require a more sophisticated ride, less forgiving
I personally dislike using the terms in this context as I am an ammy who prefers a hotter more finesse sort of ride. And I know many pro who prefer a kick sort of ride. I think those terms better describe and then knowning ones own REALISTIC goals. A rider who realistically will not ride beyond 2nd level doesn’t need a horse bred and with the talent to go GP in dressage. Likewise in eventing…the novice/training packer horse is often VERY different from the 3-4* horse.
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