The Amish will often do this. They raise dogs for profit.
All of the pet stores that I know profess that the puppies are from local breeders and not puppy mills.
Here is the conundrum that will probably get me in trouble with a lot of people. Most pet stores are selling primarily popular small breeds. I have never know a hobby breeder that does health testing and participates in some sort of activity with their dogs to sell them to pet stores. They want to meet the puppy buyers and screen them. Their reputation hinges on whether or not the dogs they are breeding to into rescue. The vast majority of these people do extensive screening, which a lot of people on these forums simply won’t tolerate. Forms, references, and turning down people without fences or who work full time or who have small kids isn’t unusual. They also have waiting lists, often times for months.
A lot of shoppers want a puppy, right now. They don’t want to go through a screening process or fill out a lot of paperwork or talk about why they dog they’ve picked out might not be a good fit. They want the puppy, this weekend, with no fuss.
Hence, pet stores. These puppies are not from hobby breeders. They probably don’t have genetic health testing.
Where are they from? Some are from the nasty puppy mills we see pictures of. Some are from what is more accurately termed a commercial breeder. Some of these kennels are actually very sanitary and clean. They aren’t a hobby breeder and I wouldn’t want to get a dog from one, but they aren’t filthy either.
It is a tough issue, and more and more stores are moving away from puppy sales. I think that is a good thing, but anytime there is a market for something, someone, somehow, will fill it. There is a market for small popular breeds, and a lot of the people shopping for them don’t care to go through through the type of process that a reputable breeder requires
[QUOTE=Windsor1;7471840]
Is this common?
I am not shopping for a dog but recently noticed that a local pet store (http://www.petopiava.com/) sells puppies but advertises that it does not buy from puppy mills. Website says We do not buy from puppy mills …making sure you get your choice of the healthiest puppies available. We hand pick all of our puppies from local breeders, giving you the peace of mind you are looking for when selecting a pet. You can rest assured that the puppy you are taking home is healthy, and will be a part of your family for years to come.
I’ve never heard of breeders allowing a puppy to go to a pet store and wonder if this becoming “a thing.” Maybe the breeders sell the puppies to the store under the condition that the store seriously vet prospective owners or something? I don’t know.[/QUOTE]
They’re lying through their teeth. Only commercial breeders, aka puppy mills, sell dogs to pet stores. I can vouch for this having seen the paperwork that accompanies puppies sold through pet stores. Fortunately, we now have very few of those around.
The ironic part of all this, is that I have also seen the prices paid for many such puppies. Often, I could have pointed folks to a local reputable breeder which would have cost less and resulted in a physically and mentally healthier puppy
[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7471992]
Did you read it? I have to concede one good thing: they are trying to stop some things they consider abusive such as staking out and hitting. The health guarantee excludes this and that and that and in order to prove anything you have to jump through a dozen hoops.[/QUOTE]
I did after you mentioned it. To me, it seemed standard for this type of seller. It’s not our fault, but if it somehow is (it isn’t), you can have your pet OR your money.
I haven’t seem anything like 16 before. “The Buyer agrees and acknowledges that even with the reasonable due diligence the Sellerhas conducted, there is always a chance that a particular dog may be a slightly mixed breed with-out the Seller’s knowledge. In such a case, the Seller shall bear no liability to the Buyer.” ?? Aren’t most of them “mixed breed” anyways?
[QUOTE=Peaches;7472037]
I haven’t seem anything like 16 before. “The Buyer agrees and acknowledges that even with the reasonable due diligence the Sellerhas conducted, there is always a chance that a particular dog may be a slightly mixed breed with-out the Seller’s knowledge. In such a case, the Seller shall bear no liability to the Buyer.” ?? Aren’t most of them “mixed breed” anyways?[/QUOTE]
I read that as - You can’t expect the quality of breeders we’re dealing with to be 100% honest about the dogs or keep tracks of things well enough to not have “opps” litters. :sigh:
You know, I looked at that DreamyPuppy website and all I could think was, imagine if the SPCA could get the same marketing spin on the rescued dogs PLUS make people feel good about rescuing, all for a fraction of the $$ these folks are charging. I’m a big-dog person myself so I don’t understand the attraction of the designer pooches, but I’ve had some co-workers spend money like this on xyz-doodles, aka mutts.
This is what the Fairfax County SPCA (located just a few miles from DreamyPuppy) has by way of advertising (sorry for the long link): http://www.petharbor.com/results.asp?searchtype=ADOPT&friends=0&samaritans=0&nosuccess=0&rows=10&imght=120&imgres=thumb&view=sysadm.v_ftwy&bgcolor=333366&text=FFFFFF&link=FFFFFF&alink=FFFFFF&vlink=FFFFFF&fontface=arial&fontsize=10&col_hdr_bg=FFCC00&col_bg=FFFFFF&col_fg=333366&SBG=333366&zip=22030&miles=10&shelterlist='FRFX'&atype=&where=type_DOG&PAGE=1
[QUOTE=Casey09;7472022]
All of the pet stores that I know profess that the puppies are from local breeders and not puppy mills.
Here is the conundrum that will probably get me in trouble with a lot of people. Most pet stores are selling primarily popular small breeds. I have never know a hobby breeder that does health testing and participates in some sort of activity with their dogs to sell them to pet stores. They want to meet the puppy buyers and screen them. Their reputation hinges on whether or not the dogs they are breeding to into rescue. The vast majority of these people do extensive screening, which a lot of people on these forums simply won’t tolerate. Forms, references, and turning down people without fences or who work full time or who have small kids isn’t unusual. They also have waiting lists, often times for months.
A lot of shoppers want a puppy, right now. They don’t want to go through a screening process or fill out a lot of paperwork or talk about why they dog they’ve picked out might not be a good fit. They want the puppy, this weekend, with no fuss.
Hence, pet stores. These puppies are not from hobby breeders. They probably don’t have genetic health testing.
Where are they from? Some are from the nasty puppy mills we see pictures of. Some are from what is more accurately termed a commercial breeder. Some of these kennels are actually very sanitary and clean. They aren’t a hobby breeder and I wouldn’t want to get a dog from one, but they aren’t filthy either.
It is a tough issue, and more and more stores are moving away from puppy sales. I think that is a good thing, but anytime there is a market for something, someone, somehow, will fill it. There is a market for small popular breeds, and a lot of the people shopping for them don’t care to go through through the type of process that a reputable breeder requires[/QUOTE]
I think this post bears repeating.
There’s a lot of ridiculous hoops to jump through to get puppies from most breeders. No breeder would ever have sold a dog to me when I was looking for my first one - tiny urban studio with a rabbit, no yard, and 80+ hours/week at school/work. Thankfully I wanted to adopt anyway, and brought home a lovely dog who comes running with me & we’re active members of a canine sporting club. She has so much fun/exercise/training in my free time that I don’t think she minds snoozing while I’m busy. The point is, if I’d wanted a puppy, I would have been forced to go to a “less reputable” breeder or pet store.
There is a contingent of people who provide great homes for dogs who want puppies & can either not afford or qualify for a puppy that “furthers the breed.”
[QUOTE=Marshfield;7472036]
They’re lying through their teeth. Only commercial breeders, aka puppy mills, sell dogs to pet stores. I can vouch for this having seen the paperwork that accompanies puppies sold through pet stores. Fortunately, we now have very few of those around.
The ironic part of all this, is that I have also seen the prices paid for many such puppies. Often, I could have pointed folks to a local reputable breeder which would have cost less and resulted in a physically and mentally healthier puppy[/QUOTE]
That is a catch 22, because the good breeders won’t sell to your run of the mill puppy buyer, as we have seen in the other thread.
Similar to what so many rescues do, they vet people to the point they get discouraged and end up with the first puppy they come across on Craiglist or some parking lot.
There is a huge demand by that general public to get a puppy and most of those end up in fine homes, if not perfect ones.
The trouble, good breeders just won’t sell to that public, but handpick a few to sell their few puppies to, leaving that demand out there for backyard breeders and puppy mills to fill.
I don’t know of a good solution.
No reputable breeder would ever sell a puppy to a petstore for it to live in a 2x2 cage and be sold to whoever swipes a card first. They might not be puppy mills but that certainly does not mean they are ethical, responsible, or should be praised to any degree.
[QUOTE=independentlyawesome;7472123]
I think this post bears repeating.
There’s a lot of ridiculous hoops to jump through to get puppies from most breeders. No breeder would ever have sold a dog to me when I was looking for my first one - tiny urban studio with a rabbit, no yard, and 80+ hours/week at school/work. Thankfully I wanted to adopt anyway, and brought home a lovely dog who comes running with me & we’re active members of a canine sporting club. She has so much fun/exercise/training in my free time that I don’t think she minds snoozing while I’m busy. The point is, if I’d wanted a puppy, I would have been forced to go to a “less reputable” breeder or pet store.
There is a contingent of people who provide great homes for dogs who want puppies & can either not afford or qualify for a puppy that “furthers the breed.”[/QUOTE]
Well, I would actually argue that you weren’t a good candidate for a dog at all (at that point in time). You wanted a dog so that for 80 hours a week it could…sit home and hold it’s bladder? So not qualifying for a puppy…well, I agree, you shouldn’t have. 
But aside from the 80 hours a week of not being around - I don’t think you really would have been such a hard sell for a reputable breeder or a shelter, and there are quite a number of puppy rescue organizations as well. Lots of people live in apartments or condos without a fenced in backyard, and certainly for some breeds this isn’t an issue. A breeder doesn’t just look at where you live, but how you live. We bought a well-bred hunting dog puppy when we lived in a tiny brownstone in the middle of the city – that dog got far more exercise than most dogs with a backyard.
As for being able to afford a well-bred dog…the prices on this website are higher than many reputable breeders of my breed - more than I paid. And - they are mutts with no health checks or guarantees.
I would love it if puppy “sales” was simply outlawed - forcing people who want dogs to actually seek out breeders and/or go through shelters. The availability of these cute little mail-order mutts certainly does not help the fate of dogs in shelters…and if there ever was a shortage of puppies/dogs…I’m sure that breeders would still fill the need better than a puppy mill.
Bluey and independentlyawesome make excellent points. 
I have a friend who bought a Sheltie puppy for her family from a breeder who advertised in the newspaper (basically just a local dog owner with two unrelated Shelties, whom they breed repeatedly), and later, the friend bought another Sheltie puppy from the same breeder (same sire and dam, obviously.)
I have NO idea whether there are any health checks done on the breeding pair, but they certainly make a lot of money from this “small side business.”
As far as I can tell, both dogs have nice temperaments, and have no major health issues–so far.
But puppies are very often hard to come by (legit breeders are, as mentioned, EXTREMELY picky about who their pups go to!), so as a result, these “puppy stores” are going to continue to do a booming business.
[QUOTE=S1969;7472166]
Well, I would actually argue that you weren’t a good candidate for a dog at all (at that point in time). You wanted a dog so that for 80 hours a week it could…sit home and hold it’s bladder? So not qualifying for a puppy…well, I agree, you shouldn’t have.
But aside from the 80 hours a week of not being around - I don’t think you really would have been such a hard sell for a reputable breeder or a shelter, and there are quite a number of puppy rescue organizations as well. Lots of people live in apartments or condos without a fenced in backyard, and certainly for some breeds this isn’t an issue. A breeder doesn’t just look at where you live, but how you live. We bought a well-bred hunting dog puppy when we lived in a tiny brownstone in the middle of the city – that dog got far more exercise than most dogs with a backyard.
As for being able to afford a well-bred dog…the prices on this website are higher than many reputable breeders of my breed - more than I paid. And - they are mutts with no health checks or guarantees.
I would love it if puppy “sales” was simply outlawed - forcing people who want dogs to actually seek out breeders and/or go through shelters. The availability of these cute little mail-order mutts certainly does not help the fate of dogs in shelters…and if there ever was a shortage of puppies/dogs…I’m sure that breeders would still fill the need better than a puppy mill.[/QUOTE]
Also salient points, here.
[QUOTE=independentlyawesome;7472123]
There’s a lot of ridiculous hoops to jump through to get puppies from most breeders.
There is a contingent of people who provide great homes for dogs who want puppies & can either not afford or qualify for a puppy that “furthers the breed.”[/QUOTE]
Most times these pet stores charge more than a reputable breeder would. I’ve seen the receipts over the years in small animal medicine. There is NO excuse for buying a puppy from a pet store.
And those ridiculous hoops are part of the breeder being responsible and doing their utmost to ensure that the puppy is suitable for the family and likely to have a lifetime home (and being there as a safety net for the family if they cannot keep their puppy)
Ugh. I don’t want to offend anyone, but do people who like the little froo-froo breeds/nonbreeds tend to be more gullible, or just clueless? I’m saying this sort of jokingly, but then wondering…
I can’t imagine ever wanting to buy a dog from something called Dreamy Puppy. Gag.
If the impulse buyers really have to get a puppy NOW! they can go through the Pennysaver/CL/FB/IG/newspaper and get 4-5 puppies that are at least home-raised from someone’s pets for what one store pup would cost, no hoops required, just have cash handy.
Not ideal, but at least far better for the puppy’s welfare than being in a mill and then store setting.
[QUOTE=Marshfield;7472208]
Most times these pet stores charge more than a reputable breeder would. I’ve seen the receipts over the years in small animal medicine. There is NO excuse for buying a puppy from a pet store.
And those ridiculous hoops are part of the breeder being responsible and doing their utmost to ensure that the puppy is suitable for the family and likely to have a lifetime home (and being there as a safety net for the family if they cannot keep their puppy)[/QUOTE]
Ridiculous hoops is right.
I lost my border collie to a rattler.
For the next four years I didn’t have a dog, but still spent several days a week helping with the dog club lessons and agility practices and shows our club puts on every year and puppy raising for a friend that competed in herding trials with his border collies.
Eventually I decided to maybe get a dog again, but with my allergies, I was thinking a small, slick haired dog I could keep the cleanest.
When word got out, I had several offers of puppies from people that came to our shows, but none was the kind of dog I really wanted.
I had also been helping at the animal control shelter, but knew the surprises you get when you get a puppy from there, surprises that with my allergies, I didn’t want to take those chances.
Shelter puppies can and do grow to be most anything you didn’t expect.
Looking at what was there that also could make a good obedience and agility dog, I had seen some toy fox terriers in our agility dog shows.
I had always liked them, so I asked around and someone told me a lady about 4 hours away would have puppies soon.
I called her, explained what I wanted, that I had been working over 30 years now with our dog club and had references.
I do speak with a hard to understand accent, but I really didn’t get much of a chance to talk, as she asked if I ever had a terrier and when I said no, but always liked those in our club, she went off the deep end, saying that she had a bad feeling and that I should not get a terrier, that she didn’t think it was a good fit.
Mind you, we had talked maybe ten minutes at most, her carrying the conversation with all she knew about TFTs.
I hardly got a word in, she ended up practically crying and asking me to promise not to get a TFT, that she just knew it was a bad match.
I didn’t want her to be so unhappy and agree that I would not get one.
So, I looked around some more and got a rat terrier from a breeder that had been working her dogs in agility.
That is my current now 8 year old dog and she is a wonderful dog and a great match.
Why would that lady think that I didn’t know what I wanted and why would she flat made me promise I would not get “her” breed, because after speaking with her some minutes, where she did most of the talking and now “she just knew it was not a good fit?”
Maybe she was reading tea leaves as she was talking to me?:rolleyes:
I asked around some more and was told that she was running the local breed club and is really like that, a bit unhinged.
The trouble, I have heard of such breeders all along, they don’t seem to be that rare.
It is a bit extreme, I think, when it comes to be protective of their breed and of their puppies.
There really is no way that she could possibly make any decision on how suitable that breed is for anyone just on a few minutes of her talking away and making herself so upset about how much she knows and cares for her breed.:no:
I have heard similar stories from others wanting to get puppies, too many such to believe that was an aberration.
[QUOTE=gaitedincali;7472263]
If the impulse buyers really have to get a puppy NOW! they can go through the Pennysaver/CL/FB/IG/newspaper and get 4-5 puppies that are at least home-raised from someone’s pets for what one store pup would cost, no hoops required, just have cash handy.
Not ideal, but at least far better for the puppy’s welfare than being in a mill and then store setting.[/QUOTE]
I know people that know not to buy from pet stores, those are puppy mill dogs.
They just want a dog, go on the internet, look at some web sites, chose one and are sold a puppy, that is shipped to them.
I suspect those are puppy mills that run a slick show, their dogs “have champions in their pedigree” and some have been really nice dogs too, but that is where many today I know, that want a pet only and don’t know anything about dogs, are getting theirs.
There is a demand out there from those people, most of those people will take good care of their dogs all their lives, will spay and neuter.
“Good” breeders won’t sell them their puppies, shelter dog is not always what they want, so where can they go for their dogs?
[QUOTE=Bluey;7472270]
Ridiculous hoops is right.
I lost my border collie to a rattler.
For the next four years I didn’t have a dog, but still spent several days a week helping with the dog club lessons and agility practices and shows our club puts on every year and puppy raising for a friend that competed in herding trials with his border collies.
Eventually I decided to maybe get a dog again, but with my allergies, I was thinking a small, slick haired dog I could keep the cleanest.
When word got out, I had several offers of puppies from people that came to our shows, but none was the kind of dog I really wanted.
I had also been helping at the animal control shelter, but knew the surprises you get when you get a puppy from there, surprises that with my allergies, I didn’t want to take those chances.
Shelter puppies can and do grow to be most anything you didn’t expect.
Looking at what was there that also could make a good obedience and agility dog, I had seen some toy fox terriers in our agility dog shows.
I had always liked them, so I asked around and someone told me a lady about 4 hours away would have puppies soon.
I called her, explained what I wanted, that I had been working over 30 years now with our dog club and had references.
I do speak with a hard to understand accent, but I really didn’t get much of a chance to talk, as she asked if I ever had a terrier and when I said no, but always liked those in our club, she went off the deep end, saying that she had a bad feeling and that I should not get a terrier, that she didn’t think it was a good fit.
Mind you, we had talked maybe ten minutes at most, her carrying the conversation with all she knew about TFTs.
I hardly got a word in, she ended up practically crying and asking me to promise not to get a TFT, that she just knew it was a bad match.
I didn’t want her to be so unhappy and agree that I would not get one.
So, I looked around some more and got a rat terrier from a breeder that had been working her dogs in agility.
That is my current now 8 year old dog and she is a wonderful dog and a great match.
Why would that lady think that I didn’t know what I wanted and why would she flat made me promise I would not get “her” breed, because after speaking with her some minutes, where she did most of the talking and now “she just knew it was not a good fit?”
Maybe she was reading tea leaves as she was talking to me?:rolleyes:
I asked around some more and was told that she was running the local breed club and is really like that, a bit unhinged.
The trouble, I have heard of such breeders all along, they don’t seem to be that rare.
It is a bit extreme, I think, when it comes to be protective of their breed and of their puppies.
There really is no way that she could possibly make any decision on how suitable that breed is for anyone just on a few minutes of her talking away and making herself so upset about how much she knows and cares for her breed.:no:
I have heard similar stories from others wanting to get puppies, too many such to believe that was an aberration.[/QUOTE]
MANY, MANY dog people are just batshit crazy. It’s as simple as that
This is a complex dilemma and a tough situation, with no easy answers or quick, simple solutions!
[QUOTE=Dr. Doolittle;7472294]
MANY, MANY dog people are just batshit crazy. It’s as simple as that
This is a complex dilemma and a tough situation, with no easy answers or quick, simple solutions![/QUOTE]
I thought horse people were crazy…until I got involved with dog people.
[QUOTE=LauraKY;7472316]
I thought horse people were crazy…until I got involved with dog people.[/QUOTE]
:yes:
