When I lived a few states away, there were pet store owners who breed “AKC registered” dogs-not even close- ran beagles and bassets together, and dogs I saw around town were obviously (at least to me) mixed, and they were sold with papers, and called whatever breed they most resembled. There was also a huge, toy specific breeder, with AKC papered puppies, and horrifyingly bad living conditions, but since she was politically connected, nothing was done about her ever. People raised puppies in mills, and typically received about 10% of what the animals were sold for at the pet store, and many breeders dumped culls with obvious defects at the pet store. I knew one woman who purchased at least 6 puppies from this place over the years, knew how awful the dogs were treated, and kept going back-not one dog was around long, because they all had terrible health or temperament problems. Puppy mills can’t exist without people who keep buying puppies from pet stores, but people keep doing it.
[QUOTE=Windsor1;7471840]
Is this common?
I am not shopping for a dog but recently noticed that a local pet store (http://www.petopiava.com/) sells puppies but advertises that it does not buy from puppy mills. Website says We do not buy from puppy mills …making sure you get your choice of the healthiest puppies available. We hand pick all of our puppies from local breeders, giving you the peace of mind you are looking for when selecting a pet. You can rest assured that the puppy you are taking home is healthy, and will be a part of your family for years to come.
I’ve never heard of breeders allowing a puppy to go to a pet store and wonder if this becoming “a thing.” Maybe the breeders sell the puppies to the store under the condition that the store seriously vet prospective owners or something? I don’t know.[/QUOTE]
My store did this exactly. Our puppies were 90% “oops the dog had puppies”. The local shelter referred them to us when they filled up. We took them in, got them vetted, cleaned them up and sold them on. Not quite rescue but not puppy mills either. I thought it was a good in between, and kept a lot of puppies and kittens out of a shelter. Sadly, under public pressure from the “ALL PET STORE PUPPIES ARE FROM PUPPY MILLS WAAAAAHHH” crowd, we stopped taking in puppies and kittens. The euth rate that summer at the local shelter went WAY WAY up for babies, especially the kittens.
[QUOTE=Peaches;7472037]
I did after you mentioned it. To me, it seemed standard for this type of seller. It’s not our fault, but if it somehow is (it isn’t), you can have your pet OR your money.
I haven’t seem anything like 16 before. “The Buyer agrees and acknowledges that even with the reasonable due diligence the Sellerhas conducted, there is always a chance that a particular dog may be a slightly mixed breed with-out the Seller’s knowledge. In such a case, the Seller shall bear no liability to the Buyer.” ?? Aren’t most of them “mixed breed” anyways?[/QUOTE]
Also, our health guarantee specified that if something was wrong, you could keep said pet, and we paid your vet bills. Technically we paid up to the price of the pet, but in reality, I paid out a couple vet bills over 1k on $100.00 puppies. We did what was right by the pets and by the owners. I miss that job a lot. I know that MOST pet store puppies are from mills/Amish (the amish run some of the most wretched mills anywhere- puppies are a cash crop)- but NOT ALL. Cause mine were not. Ever. Period.
[QUOTE=shayaalliard;7472380]
My store did this exactly. Our puppies were 90% “oops the dog had puppies”. The local shelter referred them to us when they filled up. We took them in, got them vetted, cleaned them up and sold them on. Not quite rescue but not puppy mills either. I thought it was a good in between, and kept a lot of puppies and kittens out of a shelter. Sadly, under public pressure from the “ALL PET STORE PUPPIES ARE FROM PUPPY MILLS WAAAAAHHH” crowd, we stopped taking in puppies and kittens. The euth rate that summer at the local shelter went WAY WAY up for babies, especially the kittens.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for this explanation. I’m curious – were the shelter overflow puppies you got mostly purebred animals (with or without papers) or were most of them mixed breeds/mutts?
I’m disturbed by the entire marketing concept of buying puppies from anyone except a reputable breeder.
That said, curiosity got the best of me and I searched out my breed on the Northern VA site - Miniature Schnauzer. I clicked the video link and was horrified. I am admittedly, a dog neophyte, however, something was really wonky with that pup’s gait and over-all movement. His face did NOT look like a schnauzer at all, which makes me question if he truly IS a schnauzer. So weird.
[QUOTE=shayaalliard;7472380]
My store did this exactly. Our puppies were 90% “oops the dog had puppies”. The local shelter referred them to us when they filled up. We took them in, got them vetted, cleaned them up and sold them on. Not quite rescue but not puppy mills either. I thought it was a good in between, and kept a lot of puppies and kittens out of a shelter. Sadly, under public pressure from the “ALL PET STORE PUPPIES ARE FROM PUPPY MILLS WAAAAAHHH” crowd, we stopped taking in puppies and kittens. The euth rate that summer at the local shelter went WAY WAY up for babies, especially the kittens.[/QUOTE]
Yeah…but…no one pays $1000 for an “oops the dog had puppies”. That’s usually the pit/lab/shepherd cross you see at the shelter.
Although - I think it’s a great idea. But this is really a shelter/rescue service – a friend works with www.helporphanpuppies.org and it is very similar, except that it’s not for profit, and there is no suggesting that the puppies that were bred (which suggests that there was intent behind the pairing). If you expect people to pay for these mistakes…that’s unrealistic, and not surprisingly unsuccessful…
But, any pet store that sells Malti-Poos and “Valley Bulldogs”…this is a very different thing. And if they think they are “oops the dog had puppies”, they are essentially supporting and/or enabling the “puppy mill” market – whether it’s 100 puppies at one location or only 10 at a time…these puppies don’t just happen.
Mostly mixes. Prices changed a bit in the 10 years I was there, but we basically did
large breed mix 99.99
medium breed mix 150-200
small breed mix 249-299
short hair kittens 39.99
long hair kittens 49.99
We did take some adult dogs and older puppies- these guys were more often purebred. “we are moving…allergic…don’t have time…it ate the couch…etc”
We were not allowed to take in Pit Bulls, Pit Mixes, Chow Mixes, and certain breeds that we had a lot of claims paid on. Also had a “blacklist” of people we no longer took from, because they had brought puppies with issues.
Cats had to be “at least 8 weeks old,no more than 12 weeks old, no fleas, no earmites, weight at least two pounds, no all black and appear healthy.” Cage space was first come first served and we got 6-8 calls A DAY in kitten season.
There is also a ‘rescue’ I knew about, they got puppies from Craigslist, Walmart parking lot puppies, and other free sources. The resold for $400 and up, no vet care as far as I know, and the operator of the ‘rescue’ had some of the most ridiculous idea of where parvo and other diseases came from. She was shut down in my area by the animal control officer, and the business license enforcement officer. So there are for profit, so-called rescues, and it’s a blessing to the animals that this woman finally had so much flak from buyers that she finally shut down the illegal, for profit operation.
It seems to me that a “reputable” breeder could avail themselves of the marketing tool of a storefront. Why not? I agree that people who care about their dogs would hopefully not want to leave the puppies at the store 24x7 in the little cages but then again we are horse people who often keep our horses in little boxes. 
Whether any of the linked stores have associations with “reputable” breeders I don’t know. I’m just saying the concept is possible. I do think the clause disclaiming the purebred guarantee is pretty disturbing.
Now… “reputable” breeder only doing it for the betterment of the breed?? Do you mean like the breeders that have selectively bred for a breed standard that has often had serious health issues for their breeds? Poor Pekingese’ can’t breathe properly but they win Best in Show at Westminster. And what about the many large breeds who have suffered from hip dysplasia?? Etc, etc. I realize that some may be trying to remedy these issues but others just want to win at dog shows with silly breed standards based on unhealthy characteristics.
I’m not defending bad treatment of dogs or puppy mills but lets not put “reputable” breeders on pedestal. IMO
reputable breeders have a waiting list. they also have the ability to keep whatever puppies don’t find a home or are returned for whatever reason.
The problem is people who need a puppy right now- End up buying that shitzadoodle for $1000 only to find out later the puppy has a heart condition and any other common health problems that happen with BYB’s and Mills.
Breeder hoops and puppy buyers
I think one post may have been touching on my ‘Rejected by Two Kennels’ thread. I was rejected and dejected. The breeders did not provide any suggestions, just “no.” That might turn someone else to online pet stores and off breeders entirely.
My sister is currently seeking a PWD puppy. She keeps repeating, “Breeders are crazy. This is over the top.” I told her many rescues are even more invasive and particular. As has been repeated in other threads, often breeders are more flexible than rescues.
If you don’t want to answer any questions or have any safety net, go to a byb or the city shelter.
Sister’s PWD breeder acknowledged that “Often when families want a puppy, they want it right now. If you don’t want to wait…” Families contacting a breeder (with CH and nationally ranked OB dogs who belongs to various clubs, supports her puppy buyers throughout the dog’s life, current & extensive health tests) in March do not want to wait until May 
WTF?!! You can’t wait 3 months? :mad:
“Saving” the pet store puppy and $$$$ = quality
[QUOTE=cloudy18;7472255]
Ugh. I don’t want to offend anyone, but do people who like the little froo-froo breeds/nonbreeds tend to be more gullible, or just clueless? I’m saying this sort of jokingly, but then wondering…[/QUOTE]
DreamyPuppy and other pet stores sell my breed: Papillons. I know more than one woman who bought the froo froo puppy in the window to save it from the cold confines of the pet store :eek::mad::.
These people also believe the “hybrid vigor” BS and think the outrageous price tag means it is a quality store, conscientious breeder, healthy puppy, special “breed” and/or all of the above. I don’t know anyone who purchased from a pet store that did anything beyond 48 hrs planning; it is an impulse buy.
FWIW, I’ve always seen large breed puppies at these places too. Labs & Goldens are staples. That was a few years ago. I do not walk into such stores anymore.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7472850]
reputable breeders have a waiting list. they also have the ability to keep whatever puppies don’t find a home or are returned for whatever reason.
The problem is people who need a puppy right now- End up buying that shitzadoodle for $1000 only to find out later the puppy has a heart condition and any other common health problems that happen with BYB’s and Mills.[/QUOTE]
Reputable breeders could say that, not just flat tell people they are not good enough for their precious puppies and make a big show of how emotionally invested they are, as some I hear about and experienced do.
Not everyone is looking for a puppy yesterday.
I think how difficult some breeders tend to be when “the public” ask about their dogs is what many have been against when asking about puppies from a certain group of “good” breeders “protecting” their breed.
The reality is that there are not that many good breeders breeding and so there is a true shortage of well bred dogs from good breeders.
That is one reason people have to go find dogs other places.
Our dog club has been working with animal control for years to get dogs adopted and there there is only so much that can be done.
That too is a hard market for dogs to expand and it doesn’t help that some non-profit shelters also have become too hard to get dogs from.
I don’t know what kind of solution there is to this.
i have never had a problem with breeders, to be honest. But i research the breed for a long time before jumping in. i ask questions, i know i am rare, but we have invested in fencing the last 2 homes we have. I have an acre fenced and a dog door. That is a big plus to a breeder. plus i am home most of the time.
A breeder that says they will take back a dog if it does not work out also does not want to take back the dog after someone has not trained it and has let it become a monster.
If there is a reason that numerous breeders turn someone down, that is a red flag to me that the person should not have a dog at this time. maybe their home is not ideal, or maybe their work schedule is not ideal. I do not think that good breeders should be bashed for being careful about who their sell their pups to.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7472957]
i have never had a problem with breeders, to be honest. But i research the breed for a long time before jumping in. i ask questions, i know i am rare, but we have invested in fencing the last 2 homes we have. I have an acre fenced and a dog door. That is a big plus to a breeder. plus i am home most of the time.
A breeder that says they will take back a dog if it does not work out also does not want to take back the dog after someone has not trained it and has let it become a monster.
If there is a reason that numerous breeders turn someone down, that is a red flag to me that the person should not have a dog at this time. maybe their home is not ideal, or maybe their work schedule is not ideal. I do not think that good breeders should be bashed for being careful about who their sell their pups to.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think anyone bashes breeders for being careful who they sell to, but for being over the top about it, way beyond reason.
There are plenty of such examples out there when it comes to selling/placing animals to blame how some breeders seem to act toward’s those looking for their next pet.
As for breeders selling to pet stores, for many years there was a local pet store that kept three yorkies in their store.
The two females had puppies regularly and the puppies were sold thru the store.
I don’t know how the store owner/breeder handled the sales, if to anyone showing up with the money or vetted the buyers first.
What some pet stores here had were lists of available local puppies and would get a percentage of any sales from those buyers they referred to breeders.
There you could find just anything, from someone’s oops! breedings to someone with a puppy that didn’t sell wherever they normally sold them and who knows what other, maybe some small puppy mills.
People that came to our puppy classes had all kinds of stories where their puppy came from.
[QUOTE=Nezzy;7472850]
reputable breeders have a waiting list. they also have the ability to keep whatever puppies don’t find a home or are returned for whatever reason.
The problem is people who need a puppy right now- End up buying that shitzadoodle for $1000 only to find out later the puppy has a heart condition and any other common health problems that happen with BYB’s and Mills.[/QUOTE]
You would be surprised 
by the number of people who want to buy a puppy “for a child’s birthday”…
A lot of shoppers want a puppy, right now. They don’t want to go through a screening process or fill out a lot of paperwork or talk about why they dog they’ve picked out might not be a good fit. They want the puppy, this weekend, with no fuss.
yeah- and where, exactly, do you think all the dogs in shelters come from? from THESE people. In most areas, the vast majority of dogs dumped into the shelter/rescue system are adolescents who were obtained as cute puppies on impulse and then discarded when the novelty and cuteness wears off.
[QUOTE=wendy;7473023]
yeah- and where, exactly, do you think all the dogs in shelters come from? from THESE people. In most areas, the vast majority of dogs dumped into the shelter/rescue system are adolescents who were obtained as cute puppies on impulse and then discarded when the novelty and cuteness wears off.[/QUOTE]
Yes…:no: And when the behavior problems begin (which is around the 4+ month mark), and no training is done. Reprehensible, really–and completely avoidable–but we live in a culture of “instant gratification.”
Honestly I am not blaming breeders for being picky. Breeding done correctly is expensive
It is a hobby for them, and they really love their puppies and want the best for them. They usually have waiting lists and have no problem placing the puppies. Why not look for exceptional, dog-centered homes for them? I would. (By the way, I’m not talking about Bicoastal’s situation here - I am talking about average puppy buyers). It only makes sense for them to be picky and do screening. Most agree to take dogs back , and you would have to be careful about placement.
The problem is that there is high demand for small dog puppies and many of the people who want them don’t have the type of lifestyle or knowledge or patience to buy from a reputable breeder. This is what opens the door for commercial breeders who aren’t doing the health testing.
My aunt breeds Boxers. Now she doesn’t do health testing but she waits until the dogs are older before see breeds them so as to see their temperament and if they have any health issues. Living on a working dairy farm these dogs go to the barn and help move cattle and whatnot. She will not breed anything that has any animal aggression, i.e. she had bought 2 3 year old boxers but didn’t breed them and gave them away due to the fact that they liked to kill chickens. She also sells to a Pet store but only when they have a list. She stands behind her dogs even the ones that were sold in the Pet store. She sold a boxer puppy that come to find out was deaf, she offered to take the puppy back and return their money, but they wanted to keep it. When she rebred the female(not deaf) she chose a different stud dog, but when she ended up with another deaf puppy she had the female spayed.
To me a “Puppy mill” is one that pumps out puppies like hot cakes. My aunt only has maybe 4 litters a year if that and its all from different females.
