Breeders who sell puppies to pet stores?

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=arab_roots;7473555]
My aunt breeds Boxers. Now she doesn’t do health testing but she waits until the dogs are older before see breeds them so as to see their temperament and if they have any health issues. Living on a working dairy farm these dogs go to the barn and help move cattle and whatnot. She will not breed anything that has any animal aggression, i.e. she had bought 2 3 year old boxers but didn’t breed them and gave them away due to the fact that they liked to kill chickens. She also sells to a Pet store but only when they have a list. She stands behind her dogs even the ones that were sold in the Pet store. She sold a boxer puppy that come to find out was deaf, she offered to take the puppy back and return their money, but they wanted to keep it. When she rebred the female(not deaf) she chose a different stud dog, but when she ended up with another deaf puppy she had the female spayed.

To me a “Puppy mill” is one that pumps out puppies like hot cakes. My aunt only has maybe 4 litters a year if that and its all from different females.[/QUOTE]

To many, that is a small puppy mill breeder, because it doesn’t do all kinds of testing, OFA hips and whatever else the breed requires, doesn’t has the breeding dogs shown and doing well in competition to show they are close to the ideal for their breed and can do whatever the breed is used for, or at least be good at something like obedience, agility or such.

After each individual dog is mature and has been trained, competed and judged and has all kinds of health tests run, then is only when those perfect breeders will have a litter, probably one every three years.

After all that, those perfect breeders will then have so much invested in their dogs, especially emotionally, that they some times flip off and become so protective of who they sell to, beyond reasonable measure, to practically be like winning the lottery if all your stars align so you are even considered worthy of one of their puppies.

Anyone else is below them, way below and in no way to be considered any kind of an acceptable breeder.

[wendy]

My aunt breeds Boxers. Now she doesn’t do health testing but she waits until the dogs are older before see breeds them so as to see their temperament and if they have any health issues. Living on a working dairy farm these dogs go to the barn and help move cattle and whatnot. She will not breed anything that has any animal aggression, i.e. she had bought 2 3 year old boxers but didn’t breed them and gave them away due to the fact that they liked to kill chickens. She also sells to a Pet store but only when they have a list. She stands behind her dogs even the ones that were sold in the Pet store. She sold a boxer puppy that come to find out was deaf, she offered to take the puppy back and return their money, but they wanted to keep it. When she rebred the female(not deaf) she chose a different stud dog, but when she ended up with another deaf puppy she had the female spayed.

To me a “Puppy mill” is one that pumps out puppies like hot cakes. My aunt only has maybe 4 litters a year if that and its all from different females.

Well, as always, these things aren’t black and white: there is a wide range between Abusive Mill and Super Breeder. She may not be a big commercial breeder, or a horribly abusive nasty puppy mill, but she’s not a responsible breeder by any means. 4 litters a year is a big red flag for “irresponsible breeder”- most responsible breeders trying to better the breed produce fewer than one litter per year. No responsible breeder would let any pet store sell their puppies- responsible breeders need to know how their puppies turn out, and want good homes for their puppies, so they carefully select the buyers, which can’t be done via a pet store.

And only a truly irresponsible breeder would breed dogs without health checks. You can’t tell by looking at a dog if it’s carrying most genetic defects, and many do not exhibit overt symptoms until quite late in the dog’s life, so even waiting to breed doesn’t help; only testing detects the problems and allows the breeder to eliminate it. The boxer breed clubs all recommend checking all potential breeding dogs for hip and elbow dysplasia, hypothyroidism, several heart diseases, and run a DNA test for carrying degenerative myelopathy.

We took them in, got them vetted, cleaned them up and sold them on. Not quite rescue but not puppy mills either. I thought it was a good in between, and kept a lot of puppies and kittens out of a shelter. Sadly, under public pressure from the “ALL PET STORE PUPPIES ARE FROM PUPPY MILLS WAAAAAHHH” crowd, we stopped taking in puppies and kittens. The euth rate that summer at the local shelter went WAY WAY up for babies, especially the kittens.

why couldn’t you continue to take them? most of the pet stores around here work with the rescues to place dogs/ cats/ puppies/ kittens.

[Nezzy]

[QUOTE=arab_roots;7473555]
My aunt breeds Boxers. Now she doesn’t do health testing but she waits until the dogs are older before see breeds them so as to see their temperament and if they have any health issues. Living on a working dairy farm these dogs go to the barn and help move cattle and whatnot. She will not breed anything that has any animal aggression, i.e. she had bought 2 3 year old boxers but didn’t breed them and gave them away due to the fact that they liked to kill chickens. She also sells to a Pet store but only when they have a list. She stands behind her dogs even the ones that were sold in the Pet store. She sold a boxer puppy that come to find out was deaf, she offered to take the puppy back and return their money, but they wanted to keep it. When she rebred the female(not deaf) she chose a different stud dog, but when she ended up with another deaf puppy she had the female spayed.

To me a “Puppy mill” is one that pumps out puppies like hot cakes. My aunt only has maybe 4 litters a year if that and its all from different females.[/QUOTE]

that would be classified as a BYB or Back-yard breeder. Often along the same lines as a puppy mill, b/c there is no health testing.

[LauraKY]

Reputable breeders don’t sell to pet stores. Ever.

[Bicoastal]

Boxer is BYB

Boxer breeder is a “backyard breeder.” They are dubbed that because the person owns both dog and bitch under one roof or in their backyard. The vast majority of show or performance breeders own the bitch and seek an outside dog to compensate for their bitch’s flaws.

Bet aunt makes a profit selling puppies. I don’t know any “perfect breeders” who do :lol:. Perfect breeders sell puppies when they have bred a litter to obtain their next prospect; backyard breeders sell puppies when they think they can sell the entire litter at a profit margin.

[QUOTE=Bluey;7473575]
After all that, those perfect breeders will then have so much invested in their dogs, especially emotionally, that they some times flip off and become so protective of who they sell to, beyond reasonable measure, to practically be like winning the lottery if all your stars align so you are even considered worthy of one of their puppies.

Anyone else is below them, way below and in no way to be considered any kind of an acceptable breeder.[/QUOTE]

Hey Bluey, is there sarcasm in this post? That can be hard to interpret in type. Curious about the winning-the-lottery level of difficulty as I adjust my expectations & communications with breeders.

I reached out to two kennels because I thought it would take a couple years. Now I’ve stalled because 1) I was rejected and helpful folks are saying 2) this person has puppies now. I don’t want a puppy now; I want a dog in a few years and thought those perfect breeders required years of waiting.

[Marshfield]

[QUOTE=arab_roots;7473555]
My aunt breeds Boxers. Now she doesn’t do health testing but she waits until the dogs are older before see breeds them so as to see their temperament and if they have any health issues. Living on a working dairy farm these dogs go to the barn and help move cattle and whatnot. She will not breed anything that has any animal aggression, i.e. she had bought 2 3 year old boxers but didn’t breed them and gave them away due to the fact that they liked to kill chickens. She also sells to a Pet store but only when they have a list. She stands behind her dogs even the ones that were sold in the Pet store. She sold a boxer puppy that come to find out was deaf, she offered to take the puppy back and return their money, but they wanted to keep it. When she rebred the female(not deaf) she chose a different stud dog, but when she ended up with another deaf puppy she had the female spayed.

To me a “Puppy mill” is one that pumps out puppies like hot cakes. My aunt only has maybe 4 litters a year if that and its all from different females.[/QUOTE]

The four litters a year doesn’t necessarily disturb me, I do know folks who show and health test who have multiple litters per year. If you want to eventually have both sides of the pedigree be from your breedings, more than one litter per year is often necessary.

It’s the lack of health testing that I find disturbing. While I wouldn’t have one myself, it is a breed that I find to often be very sweet, but it’s a breed rife with health issues. It’s doing a disservice to the puppy buyers to be breeding without doing the recommended health testing.

[moonriverfarm]

I wouud think the no-feet-on-the-ground rule is because of parvo. That is the only part of thiis whole atrocity I agree with. When Petland opened here i visited the manager with a four inch stack of printed out lawsuits and complaints against the store nationwide for sick puppies and false claims. I cannot go near the place - it makes my blood boil.

[up-at-5]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7471951]
PS the names are driving me bananas! Morkie, Cavachon, Maltipoo, ackhh! I. must. step. away.[/QUOTE]
My boss bought a bulldog/shitzhu cross…she calls it a bull/shit!:eek:

[Cammie]

I always cringe whenever I read the classified ads in the Washington Post. This ad is always running. I removed the contact info, not that anyone on here would be stupid enough to buy a puppy from this place. Can’t imagine how anyone could look at this ad and think it’s a legitimate place to buy a healthy puppy.

PUPPIES FOR SALE - DC WV MD VA PA
$100.00
All Cute & Affordable Puppies Bring Ad For discount off Puppies Many In Store Discounts too. 59 East Rd Martinsburg WV 25404 Exit 16 East-- 1-mile off I-81 Bulldogs & Designers, Yorkie-Poos, Shih-Tzu-Poo, Bea-Bull, PugaBull, ask about English Bulldog female, Shih-Poo, Cav-A-Poos, Cocker Spaniels Black n Tan & Black & White, Mini Dachshunds, Morkies, Shih-Tzus, Yorkies, Maltese, Cavapoos, Cavachons, Yorkchi’'s, Yorkchons, & More Super Nice Puppies… finance, credit card or Cash Plus You Get $100. off select Puppies. Best Prices anywhere.

[JoZ]

I’m not surprised at the absolutism (if that’s a word) of COTHers on this matter. But here’s my experience. My friend bred short-legged Jack Russells for a while. She was just getting started, with extremely well-bred animals that she purchased and raised herself. I don’t think she marketed as well as she should have, but she did pre-sell several puppies before breeding a litter. And was generally able to sell several others while the puppies were in utero or very young. However, her bitches had freakishly large litters for small dogs – 6 to 8 puppies per litter. On a couple of occasions, she had a few perfectly healthy puppies that hadn’t sold by the time they were getting to be 3 to 4 months old.

At that time, we had a wonderful pet store in our area. It was not part of a chain. She sold those older puppies through the pet store successfully. She received less money per puppy than she was charging selling directly, so the pet store sold them at roughly the same price she had been asking.

Even as older puppies, they were small, and I felt that their cage/pen was of adequate size. And of course they had been raised in the home cage-free from birth until they went to the store. Only small dogs were accepted/sold. They were also taken out frequently to play. The pet shop owner did do screening and was quite particular about where the puppies went. My friend held the papers so that she would meet with the owners at least once during the transaction. It worked very well for her. And we still see some of the puppies around the neighborhood with their owners.

Of course this pet store went belly up. This might be significant.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=JoZ;7473931]
I’m not surprised at the absolutism (if that’s a word) of COTHers on this matter. But here’s my experience. My friend bred short-legged Jack Russells for a while. She was just getting started, with extremely well-bred animals that she purchased and raised herself. [/QUOTE]

Well, I think a lot depends on what you mean by “well-bred”. When someone purchases dogs with the purpose of breeding, it does not meet my definition of “well-bred” no matter how well they were kept or raised. (And, I don’t believe 6-8 puppies is a “freakishly large” litter for Jack Russells, although I will admit it isn’t my breed…maybe someone else can comment on that.)

“Well-bred” to me is when the dogs have demonstrated particular aspects worthy of passing on - and not judged solely by the breeder. That’s what dogs shows, agility trials and field trials are for - and independent set of people that judge the dog to be good. (Of course exceptions can be made, e.g. a non-champion breeding animal if the experienced breeder has a specific reason to use it).

After the dogs have demonstrated that they are at least good in some way, then health checks are done to make sure they are healthy and unlikely to pass on congenital defects. They simply MUST be done to call any dog “well-bred”.

And then, a breeding occurs. I know many breeders that sell some of their puppies as pets. They don’t necessarily need every dog to go to a qualified show home. And not all puppies are sold before they are born, or even before 8 weeks on occasion. But none of the breeders I know would EVER sell them to a pet store. Never. Not in a million years.

[Nezzy]

[QUOTE=JoZ;7473931]
I’m not surprised at the absolutism (if that’s a word) of COTHers on this matter. But here’s my experience. My friend bred short-legged Jack Russells for a while. She was just getting started, with extremely well-bred animals that she purchased and raised herself. I don’t think she marketed as well as she should have, but she did pre-sell several puppies before breeding a litter. And was generally able to sell several others while the puppies were in utero or very young. However, her bitches had freakishly large litters for small dogs – 6 to 8 puppies per litter. On a couple of occasions, she had a few perfectly healthy puppies that hadn’t sold by the time they were getting to be 3 to 4 months old.

At that time, we had a wonderful pet store in our area. It was not part of a chain. She sold those older puppies through the pet store successfully. She received less money per puppy than she was charging selling directly, so the pet store sold them at roughly the same price she had been asking.

Even as older puppies, they were small, and I felt that their cage/pen was of adequate size. And of course they had been raised in the home cage-free from birth until they went to the store. Only small dogs were accepted/sold. They were also taken out frequently to play. The pet shop owner did do screening and was quite particular about where the puppies went. My friend held the papers so that she would meet with the owners at least once during the transaction. It worked very well for her. And we still see some of the puppies around the neighborhood with their owners.

Of course this pet store went belly up. This might be significant.[/QUOTE]

Sorry but i have no respect for a breeder who does this. The potential homes are not screened at all. Any idiot can buy one, take it home chain it to a tree for the rest of it’s life. OR much worse. A good breeder does a home check. Sorry but that is not being a responsible breeder. that is a BYB.

[GypsyQ]

@Bicoastal;7471946

“We work with certified USDA dog breeders to bring you an exquisite collection of adorable toy dog breeds” -copied from Pauley’s Puppies

Pauley’s Puppies! The very words send shivers down my spine. I have worked for vets who dread them. I have met people with a Pauley’s Pup that’s grown up. It’s funny that they never look like the breed pictures I see on the breed registry site.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=GypsyQ;7474041]
Pauley’s Puppies! The very words send shivers down my spine. I have worked for vets who dread them. I have met people with a Pauley’s Pup that’s grown up. It’s funny that they never look like the breed pictures I see on the breed registry site.[/QUOTE]

Hey, our animal control shelter needs to try that one:

“Today’s specials!”

That ought to get more adopted, don’t you think, being so special?:rolleyes:

[WindyIsles]

Getting Dog Breeders To Respond To You - Spin-off slightly

Deleted.

Mixed up my tabs when posting.

[scierra]

Dog people who sell to pet stores are puppy mills, Craigslist, news paper or whatever other advertising are BYB. I don’t call either of these people breeders, they are “greeders” they aren’t in it for the betterment of their breed, they are in it for the money. The Boxer person described above would likely fall into that category too. No Health testing, no breed standard to compare to show they are worthy to breed. COE breeders put their heat and soul into their litters and try their hardest to improve their chosen breed.

[GraceLikeRain]

[QUOTE=Marshfield;7473807]
The four litters a year doesn’t necessarily disturb me, I do know folks who show and health test who have multiple litters per year. If you want to eventually have both sides of the pedigree be from your breedings, more than one litter per year is often necessary.

It’s the lack of health testing that I find disturbing. While I wouldn’t have one myself, it is a breed that I find to often be very sweet, but it’s a breed rife with health issues. It’s doing a disservice to the puppy buyers to be breeding without doing the recommended health testing.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely! I know of a number of breeders who breed 4 or more litters per year. If a breeder is proving their stock in the field and/or ring, performing health testing, screening potential buyers, and providing an optimal home environment, I do not find it concerning in the slightest. There are people who can breed one litter every five years and fail to do any of the above.

Waiting until a dog is older to breed does not prevent health issues from being passed along and it is concerning that a “breeder” would be under this belief. A recessive health issue may not be visible in either parent but could be disastrous for the offspring. Additionally, some of the most heart-breaking diseases do not present until after the reproductive lifespan of a dog. She could have generations of dogs that drop dead at 10 because of an underlying defect but by the time she realizes what is happening, she has produced multiple generations with the same health concerns.

What I find most concerning about the woman who sells to the pet store is that she does not seem invested in improving the breed or ensuring the long-term safety and well-being of the dogs that she produced.

[Bicoastal]

Age-dependent testing of potential breeding stock

[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;7475198]
Waiting until a dog is older to breed does not prevent health issues from being passed along and it is concerning that a “breeder” would be under this belief.[/QUOTE]

You cannot perform some tests until the animal is a certain age. For instance, OFA is 2yo (you can get preliminary earlier). Waiting until a dog is old enough to test for typical genetic problems would prevent health issues from being passed along.

[GraceLikeRain]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7475596]
You cannot perform some tests until the animal is a certain age. For instance, OFA is 2yo (you can get preliminary earlier). Waiting until a dog is old enough to test for typical genetic problems would prevent health issues from being passed along.[/QUOTE]

Slightly out of context. I was addressing the comment that the breeder was “reputable” because she waited until her dogs were older before breeding.
As I said in that paragraph, using delayed reproduction as the sole means of ensuring health is unwise. Waiting to breed a 5 year old is no a guarantee that the bitch is healthy because she could be a recessive carrier and never display symptoms or could have an issue that only appears after the end of her reproductive life. Obviously, any reputable breeder is going to wait until an age at which proven stock can have all necessary testing done before considering the animal a breeding prospect.

[Appsolute]

[QUOTE=Dr. Doolittle;7471900]
Recently, MANY of my in-home clients (and Petsmart students) seem to get their puppies from here:

http://www.dreamypuppy.com/index.php/about-us/

.[/QUOTE]

I am MIND BOGGLED that people go to STORES to buy dogs, and pay upwards of $1300 for one.

Crazy crazy crazy - course, I have never spent more than $150 for the dogs I have owned - to the local shelter, and they have all been amazing pets (lastest was actually free, some lady got him from the shelter, then decided to “give him away”. My freebie, IKE has been the BEST dog!)