Breeding a 'difficult' mare-- SOs?

[ThirdCharm]

Mare acts like she’s in raging heat, until the moment of truth and then tries to kick the holy heck out of stallion. Kicking hobbles prevent injury but obviously do not get the deed done! Apparently she has long-standing ‘issues’ with other horses in general despite being a stellar riding horse.

What is your next step? AI (collect with a jump mare and then immediately inseminate the recipient) is being considered… A logistical pain in the rear. We don’t have a lot of call for collections since he is a TB…

Jennifer

[Laurierace]

Well in Kentucky they would tranq her, put a twitch on and tie one front leg up after making absolutely sure she is in fact ready to breed. I personally would question whether or not she was broodmare material.

[crosscreeksh]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;7096250]
Well in Kentucky they would tranq her, put a twitch on and tie one front leg up after making absolutely sure she is in fact ready to breed. I personally would question whether or not she was broodmare material.[/QUOTE]

This. I called my vet for confirmation on dosage for a witchy/dangerous mare and was told I could go up to 6-8 cc Ace on a big mare. We had a visiting mare here for a re-breed and she nearly killed us all…stallion/stallion man - DH/and ME!!! We sent her home UN-bred after three such attempts. Also found out from previous covering stallion owner that she was usually THAT way!! We do own a mare who developed issues from a rude previous covering stallion’s behavior. 5 cc of Ace and she is wonderful and lovie. There is often a reason, but you have to do what you have to do to be safe.

[TrueColours]

Dormo and Torb are your friends … … the Torb should incapacitate the hind end to enough of a degree that she cannot lift a leg up to kick out. Plus a twitch. Plus a lip chain if necessary.

Good luck - stay safe

[Chestnut_Run]

Granted, we only have one stallion and we don’t stand him much. We got him more for our own mares than to “make money” standing him to outside mares, although we are happy to breed him to outside mares. So our situation may be a bit different. It’s also planned that he’s going to be my fancy dressage prospect as soon as we move (two weeks!) and get our ring installed, so keep that in mind too.

I wouldn’t breed the mare live cover to our stallion. If you are TB to TB, that means we wouldn’t breed the mare at all. The health of myself and my husband (the handlers in our situation) and the health of my stallion is worth more to me than missing one breeding no matter how nice the mare is. If your registration options allow it, the only way she’d be bred to our stallion would be AI.

If you are comfortable with the risk (sounds like it’s your stallion, but not your mare?), like everyone else pointed out, Demosadan/Turbo/heavy ace cocktail, tie-ing up a front leg, twitch and lip-chain will probably be enough to get it done. And like someone else pointed out, making sure she’s really ready with a ultrasound.

Sheila

[PhoenixFarm]

I owned one of those. They did twitches, drugs, hobbles, tied up leg, etc., and then the mare just laid down. We were hoping for JC papers, but at they point pulled the plug, went to the mount collected, instantly inseminated–took 10 minutes and got a lovely foal. But didn’t get bred again.

[ThirdCharm]

My stallion, not my mare; we only breed a few outside mares a year, he is primarily my event horse (currently running Training, hopefully following my mare to the upper levels!). We are going to track follicle development with ultrasound, and try drugs/twitch/hobble when she’s ready. But I’ve got a vet with a phantom (and a mare he’s bred before that he looooves who is a hussy anyway, happens to be in, in case he’s not sure about the phantom!). Just in case–since he’s my show horse, his safety is paramount!

Jennifer

[Megaladon]

I wouldn’t risk the stallion since he isn’t just your stud, but your event horse as well. I would either do AI or not at all. And hobbles just seem wrong to me…

[TrueColours]

Just to add. Sometimes U/S’s dont tell the true tale at all nor does that mean the mare will be receptive in 100% of the cases

Where I kept my stallion before I got my own place, we had a mare in for breeding, she would be U/S’ed and deemed “ready right now”, we’d go to the breeding area and she was totally PISSED that my stallion was coming within 20 feet of her. He wouldnt drop, his handler would hold him back trying to give him time to get interested (and he is usually VERY interested as soon as he sees the mare in the designated breeding spot!), her tail would be clamped tight, her ears would be pinned and she was starting to fire that back end at him if he even looked her way. We ended up getting the job done with Dormo and Torb, a lip chain, a twitch and a very reluctant stallion that wanted no part of any of this (cant blame him either) with the mare clamping her tail and sitting down as he mounted her. It was awful

No surprise. She didnt get in foal. I really feel in some cases even though the clinical signs are all there that she should be breedable, the stallion knows absolutely the best whether she is ready or not. He was clearly telling us she wasnt, and because of the U/S, we thought we knew better

And the vet did come the next day and said she ovulated. I guess in ways we dont understand or know, having a breedable follicle and ovulating on it doesnt = a breedable cycle and/or a pregnancy either …

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=ThirdCharm;7096239]
Kicking hobbles prevent injury but obviously do not get the deed done! Apparently she has long-standing ‘issues’ with other horses in general despite being a stellar riding horse.

Jennifer[/QUOTE]

Genuine question, are you afraid the foal with have the mare’s temperment? If she has “issues” with other horses but is great to ride, is that something that breeders don’t care about? Genuinely curious. My first thought is “why breed that attitude”? But does the riding horse factor weigh heavily, assuming she’s not Saphire or Touch of Class.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=crosscreeksh;7096271]
This. I called my vet for confirmation on dosage for a witchy/dangerous mare and was told [B]I could go up to 6-8 cc Ace on a big mare. [/QUOTE]

[/B]I’m no vet, but that seems to be a pretty light dose. I gave my Han mare (a 16.3 model) 5 ccs and it barely slowed her down!But, as others have said, if she was in KY, they would truss her up like a Christmas turkey, let the teaser have a go (of course, the first thing they would do is have a vet check to make sure she has a viable follicle, then they would give her HcG or deslorian), then bring in the stallion.

Believe me, they would get her bred if she liked it or not.

As for being good broodmare material…not sure if this makes a difference. Is she fresh off the track? Or a maiden? I had a Teke mare (maiden) who was in raging heat and I presented her to the stallion. She would NOT let him breed her and ran away so hard she dragged me 3 or 4 ft before I let go.

Ticked me off so bad I tossed her in his field (he was a 18+ yr old Arab stallion who had always pasture bred and was kind). That was a BIG field (5+ acres) and he chased her relentless, but I never saw him cover her. Each time I looked, they were at opposite corners of the field.

But somehow he did the deed! Had a lovely little filly.

However, I would caution you about using ONLY drugs as a restraint. Horses blow through drugs all the time. Use someone who knows how to safely restrain a horse through twitches & tying up a leg.

Have a vet monitor the mare’s progress via ultrasound so you only have to cover her ONCE will also reduce the danger.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;7097718]
Genuine question, are you afraid the foal with have the mare’s temperment? If she has “issues” with other horses but is great to ride, is that something that breeders don’t care about? Genuinely curious. My first thought is “why breed that attitude”? But does the riding horse factor weigh heavily, assuming she’s not Saphire or Touch of Class.[/QUOTE]

I personally so absolutely ZERO connection between how a mare is with a stallion and how she rides.

It’s probably more of a hormonal thing. Or sometimes it’s just they don’t like the stallion or mare.

A friend of mine had a maiden mare. She used one of the top repro vets in the country to determine timing. However, when she took the mare to the stallion (who was VERY willing), she totally shut down and freaked out. So my (very smart) friend, took her to one of the 2 yr old colts, who was very interested, but not so…hmmm…lusty in his manner. After about 10 mins of his adolescence wooing she calmed down and started to tease and flag. Then they brought in the older guy and she was bred before she had time to say “hey, I don’t even know you!” Got pregnant too.

Then with my stallion, I had an Arab mare who had beaten him up when he was 2.5 (long story), apparently deeming him too young for her taste (and yes, she was in heat). The next spring she changed her mind, but he absolutely REFUSED to cover her. Seriously!! They would be loose in the pasture together and she would be shaking her tailfeathers right in his face and he would just turn his head and look away.

For a minute I thought I had a gay stallion!! But then it turned ugly, and he began to chase her away…really nasty!

So we separated them. And for the next 4 foals they produced, the procedure was to make sure she had a follicle worth breeding, give her Hcg, then dope her up and cover her with a blanket (because he would try to savage her).

Then we would tease him with his favorite mare for afew mins and pull the switch-a-roo. Once we even drugged HIM. Because he TOTALLY hated her!!

Horses are people too and if you’ve been around them long enough you realize they have preferences just like we do…they aren’t machines…

Oh – and nothing wrong with hobbles if they horse is taught what they are about.

But given your situation, I’d go the AI/jump mare route. No reason to do LC these days…

[IrishWillow]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;7097600]
Just to add. Sometimes U/S’s dont tell the true tale at all nor does that mean the mare will be receptive in 100% of the cases

Where I kept my stallion before I got my own place, we had a mare in for breeding, she would be U/S’ed and deemed “ready right now”, we’d go to the breeding area and she was totally PISSED that my stallion was coming within 20 feet of her. He wouldnt drop, his handler would hold him back trying to give him time to get interested (and he is usually VERY interested as soon as he sees the mare in the designated breeding spot!), her tail would be clamped tight, her ears would be pinned and she was starting to fire that back end at him if he even looked her way. We ended up getting the job done with Dormo and Torb, a lip chain, a twitch and a very reluctant stallion that wanted no part of any of this (cant blame him either) with the mare clamping her tail and sitting down as he mounted her. It was awful

No surprise. She didnt get in foal. I really feel in some cases even though the clinical signs are all there that she should be breedable, the stallion knows absolutely the best whether she is ready or not. He was clearly telling us she wasnt, and because of the U/S, we thought we knew better

And the vet did come the next day and said she ovulated. I guess in ways we dont understand or know, having a breedable follicle and ovulating on it doesnt = a breedable cycle and/or a pregnancy either …[/QUOTE]

This. My stallion wants no part of mares not “showing” to him very visibly. Won’t drop, mount, etc. I really think the stallion knows when it is just Not a good idea

[ThirdCharm]

Yay, a little happy juice in addition to hobbles and we got the mare covered no problem. Unfortunately she ovulated this morning and she got covered this afternoon (owner’s vet was not going to check her until Friday, but I kind of insisted). Vet wanted us to cover her again tomorrow, but I think 30+ hours post-ovulation is kind of pointless, I’ve always gone by the rule of thumb that semen is good for ~72 hours, and causes an inflammatory response, so breed every other day… Yes?

Jennifer