Breeding APHA to...

[ladyj79]

Most QHs are downhill because they were bred to work cattle, quickly and efficiently. Most TBs were bred to race, they are also downhill. Most qhs with tb blood carry racing lines, thus not a. Surprise they continue to be downhill. The tb stallions incorporated by breeders of european wbs to infuse blood were carefully selected sport types. Most tb mares being used by american breeders are OTTBs, because they are cheap and plentiful. Unless you have a very heavy WB and need to infuse high quality sport type tb blood, there is no legitimate argument for the inclusion of racing bred and conformed tb mares over a “stock horse”.

I would love to see the registries be much more selective in mare approvals, particularly when it comes to tbs, but there is too much money in the numbers game of approving foals.

[camohn]

I would not go so far as to say most tbs are downhill. Most sprinter bred tbs, yes. Most of the successful classic distance and better tbs no… they tend to be built level. As to American breeders only using TBs because they are cheap … I would disagree there. Some yes, most no. TBs were the American Sporthorse long before the warmbloods moseyed across the pond in the past few decades. Yes, the vast majority here are initially bred to race and that temperament isn’t usually part of the selection process there… But that still leaves quite a few suitable ones if you look. Racehorses (ex) are generally cheap when they failed at their jobs, and I lay a lot of that at the age they are expected to be proven by. No one gives up on a jumper prospect by age 3. Heck someone probably sat on the WB propsect for the first time at the end of their 3 year old year. I have had 2 ottbs that got premium ratings at mare inspection and one that just missed with a 7.9 as she had a stone bruise and a slight limp that day. They don’t just hand those out, and those mares scored better than a lot of the WB mares that day. It is easier to find a suitable TB than a suitable stock horse though. Stock horses are bred to be riding horses (well with the sad exception of the modern halter horses…talk about Frankenhorse…) but its a different type of riding. “forward” wasn’t generally the goal.
why Tbs are actually used…
http://s82.photobucket.com/user/camohn03/media/BoomerJump.jpg.html?sort=3&o=374

[Dressagelvr]

Well, first of all, the European based WB registries don’t approve “any TB”. The TBs approved in the American arms of those registries are NOT typically down hill and are sport like. That said, most of the TBs in the Eurpoean books are English TBs, not American TBs.

RSPI, ISR/Old NA, and the American Warmblood registries are much less selective in what they approve, so if you are intent on a WB, your best bet is one of those.

But, I wouldn’t cross a stock horse w/a WB for two reasons: uncertain outcome & limited market. Few people from the stock horse world want a WB and the same is true the other way.
Who would want this baby if you couldn’t or didn’t want to keep it for life?

There are several lovely sport horse TBs, Salute the Truth and Sea Accounts are two that come to mind. We all know that TBs cross quite well w/stock horses. If I had your mare, that is what I would do.

[hoof_beats]

@Dressagelvr;7556712

uncertain outcome & limited market. Few people from the stock horse world want a WB and the same is true the other way.
Who would want this baby if you couldn’t or didn’t want to keep it for life?

I definitely agree with this, IMO I would go with a nice, proven, sporthors-ey type TB stallion that compliments your mare’s conformation. With a TB, you are far more likely to get more predictability and consistency, and a more desirable type, than with a WB, which can be more like a shot in the dark. I think it’s pretty well known by know that TBs can work well with AQHA and APHA’s, improving and refining them while not loosing the preferred traits in either. You can’t forget that the stallion is only 1/2 of the product.
I would still be interested in seeing pictures of your mare. And, if you don’t mind my asking; what are you looking for in the stallion and or future horse? A sport horse, a colored horse, a competitive eventing horse, just a horse to keep personally?

[camohn]

[QUOTE=Dressagelvr;7556712]
Well, first of all, the European based WB registries don’t approve “any TB”. The TBs approved in the American arms of those registries are NOT typically down hill and are sport like. That said, most of the TBs in the Eurpoean books are English TBs, not American TBs.

RSPI, ISR/Old NA, and the American Warmblood registries are much less selective in what they approve, so if you are intent on a WB, your best bet is one of those.

But, I wouldn’t cross a stock horse w/a WB for two reasons: uncertain outcome & limited market. Few people from the stock horse world want a WB and the same is true the other way.
Who would want this baby if you couldn’t or didn’t want to keep it for life?

There are several lovely sport horse TBs, Salute the Truth and Sea Accounts are two that come to mind. We all know that TBs cross quite well w/stock horses. If I had your mare, that is what I would do.[/QUOTE]

Approvals: what often gets forgotten is there are different books. Any mare can be presented. Now if they get in the main book or a lower book is a different story. RPSI has book I and II (main brand and half brand). Old/ISR has Oldenburg, ISR and COP…also with whole and half brands. AWR is the same, first and second premium. Different names for books, same process. The mare needs a certain score to get into the main books, and just getting inspected does not ensure that. This is where the constantly perpetuated myth that the WB registries here will pass anything comes from. They will INSPECT anything. Now pass into main book…no. That said I have used all 3 : AWR, Old/ISR and RPSI. My Paint crosses got main book papers with AWR or Book II papers with RPSI or ISR papers with the Oldenburg based on pedigree. The foals scored in the 7s, same as the majority of the full WB babies presented. The foals with lower book papers: didn’t make a whit of difference in selling them a riding horses. The buyers only looked at the horse, didn’t care if they had main or secondary papers.

stock horse crosses: more uncertain outcome? Yes.
limited market few people would want to buy? No. I have been breeding them for15 years now, so I know of what I speak. I have not kept anything I wanted to sell past the age of a yearling except for one gelding that took until he was 3, but that was because he had a minor hock issue. It was a physical reason. (Flexed perfectly sound, xrayed out with a slight blip. He has been jumping perfectly sound for several years now.) Now stock horse people would not want a WB cross that is true. Stock horse people want stock horses. The reason the OP is looking at a WB is she already knows she does not fit the stock horse mold. She isn’t looking to go there.

Who would want the baby? In my experience, plenty of people. If it is a good cross.

[camohn]

[QUOTE=hoof_beats;7557512]
And, if you don’t mind my asking; what are you looking for in the stallion and or future horse? A sport horse, a colored horse, a competitive eventing horse, just a horse to keep personally?[/QUOTE]

from her OP:
I don’t plan on breeding the foal. This breeding would be strictly to produce a horse for competition and performance purposes for an adult (me). I don’t show in strictly APHA breed shows as my mare is more sport horse type and is really snappy over fences, she just doesn’t suit the paint “hunter” style.

[paintedblibb]

I realize that paints and QH are considered stock horses but I honestly don’t consider my mare to be much stockier than most of the other breeds I see around. I feel as though when you are thinking of the paints and quarter horses crossing with the warmbloods and tbs that you are thinking of the old type built quarter horses and paints. Such as those with stocky thick heads and jaws, shorter legs, thick bodies, large muscular chest and hind ends, and croups slightly higher than the withers. As stated before horses are bred depending on their purpose and because of that not every paint and quarter horse out there is thick and downhill, those bred for hunter for example have been refined quite a bit, and not necessarily by continuously breeding to thoroughbreds (sure they helped) either. As for downhill, any horse of any breed can be downhill.

As for the market for a paintxtb or paintxwarmblood etc, if for some reason I wasn’t able to keep the animal my response would be that… Many horses; given that they are well trained and able to complete the job they are given and purpose the owner has for them can be sold regardless of papers or pure-breeding. Sure if you are trying to sell a horse for 10k and up papers and popular crosses will probably seal the deal for that price but that is not my goal especially if I was unable to keep the horse due to some pretty drastic reasons.
As I stated the resulting foal would be for me to compete on not to make a profit, or to start a breeding program. I like my mare and all the qualities she has to offer and hope to have part of that in my next show partner. I am most certainly not breeding just for color because just as though you can’t ride papers, you can’t ride color either. Color would be a plus and that is a factor my mare can throw in, three times :D.
I will try to download some pictures but as I said before I don’t have any confo one’s just some ones of her under saddle, a crappy one over fences so you can see her knees, and one of her playing in the pasture so you can get the idea of the way her body is built.
As for sporty thoroughbreds - I am not opposed to them, I actually have really considered Salute The Truth but I also like to know all of my options before I just pick one. Bringing in some sporthorse/warmblood stallions as potential mates broadens that aspect for me a bit.

[paintedblibb]

Can anyone tell me how to post pictures I am lost :o

[cmdrcltr]

If you are not a premium member, you need to put the photos on another photo storage site, such as http://www.photobucket.com/ and then post the links here.

[Dressagelvr]

The mare needs a certain score to get into the main books, and just getting inspected does not ensure that. This is where the constantly perpetuated myth that the WB registries here will pass anything comes from. They will INSPECT anything. Now pass into main book…no

But, the offspring of lower book mares can eventually work up into the main books…and a horse with part stock horse blood can be bred within the higher books. That is why many distinguish those registries from the European based ones.

[CrowneDragon]

@paintedblibb;7558779

I realize that paints and QH are considered stock horses but I honestly don’t consider my mare to be much stockier than most of the other breeds I see around. I feel as though when you are thinking of the paints and quarter horses crossing with the warmbloods and tbs that you are thinking of the old type built quarter horses and paints. Such as those with stocky thick heads and jaws, shorter legs, thick bodies, large muscular chest and hind ends, and croups slightly higher than the withers. As stated before horses are bred depending on their purpose and because of that not every paint and quarter horse out there is thick and downhill, those bred for hunter for example have been refined quite a bit, and not necessarily by continuously breeding to thoroughbreds (sure they helped) either. As for downhill, any horse of any breed can be downhill.

Yes, I think a lot of people think stock horse AQHA and http://tpappaloosas.net/images/Te%20Coolest%20AQHA.jpg

and not the possibility of http://www.gumzfarms.com/Images/2013/Elegavanta1.jpg

I have seen some nice stock breed-WB crosses. If you love your mare and wish to keep the foal, I see no reason not to continue to do your research and find a good match for her.

[bugsynskeeter]

[QUOTE=CrowneDragon;7560212]
Yes, I think a lot of people think stock horse AQHA and http://tpappaloosas.net/images/Te%20Coolest%20AQHA.jpg

and not the possibility of http://www.gumzfarms.com/Images/2013/Elegavanta1.jpg

I have seen some nice stock breed-WB crosses. If you love your mare and wish to keep the foal, I see no reason not to continue to do your research and find a good match for her.[/QUOTE]

I’ve worked with Elegantiva. She is a daughter of Encoriva TB.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/elegantiva

BTW - she had a very nice baby by Lark’s Oneforthemoney.

[camohn]

On moving up in mare books: Maybe. Depends on the percentage of non approved ( non WB/TB /Arab ) bloodlines. For example when I presented one of my paint mares ( who is half TB ) with her WB foal to Old/ISR foal got ISR papers as the rule was main book needs to be more than 75% acceptable pedigree. The filly was exactly 75%. 1% short. Now HER foal could move up to main book.Some other paint mares I have had were 73% and 7/8 TB : their foals would qualify for main book.if you start with a Paint mare with no TB it could take several generations.

[whbar158]

I personally think it is silly that people can be so against a stock horse being bred to a WB but a TB is ok. Maybe that “stock horse” is 7/8th TB and they want to breed to a high % blood WB. Just because a horse is APHA or AQHA does not mean the horse is 15.1, stocky, and downhill. Some are nice sport type, some are not, and guess what a lot of TB’s are not nice sport type. I own a QH, and yes he is more stocky traditional type, but not downhill. If you have a horse with good sport conformation it is unlikely you will get frankenhorse!
I am not into breeding anything just because, but a nice horses with a good mind and is athletic is ok to me.

[Ozzerati]

There are Paints, QHs and TBs that would give you what you want, performance wise, and still get APHA reg papers. Sacred Indian, The Spotlight, Timely Roberto, Gentlemen Send Roses, Living Large, Thanks For Come En, Iron Star Man, HBF Iron Man, Hot Ones Only (qh), Skys Blue Boy (qh), just to name a few. Sacred Indian and TFCE are deceased, but i bet theres frozen semen. Get the best of both worlds and give the foal the greatest marketability with dual options (play in or out of APHA).

[allanglos]

[QUOTE=paintedblibb;7553438]
So a few questions. Does anyone have experience owning and/or breeding an APHA to a Warmblood? Looking at the possibility of breeding one of my APHA mares to a warmblood due to the fact that I can’t seem to find a stallion that really fits the bill for what I want. While it would be great to have a foal that is elligible for registration with the APHA the only reason for this would be to have papers and a record, I don’t plan on breeding the foal. This breeding would be strictly to produce a horse for competition and performance purposes for an adult (me). I don’t show in strictly APHA breed shows as my mare is more sport horse type and is really snappy over fences, she just doesn’t suit the paint “hunter” style. Plus I think many breed paint horse shows favor the horses that IMO move with an unnaturally low headset, and unnatural canters. Interested to see your input on the warmblood APHA cross and if you may have any suggestions on stallions/bloodlines of Paint, QH, and Thoroughbreds that are more suited to the type of horse I am looking for. :D[/QUOTE]

If your mare isn’t an overo, then how about breeding her to a full JC registered TB stallion that is an overo? For instance, Risque Remarque. Homozygous black and an overo. He is also registered APHA so you would have an APHA foal that is sporty.

[arlosmine]

Frankenhorses happen when LATENT genes present and combine in inopportune ways. Therefore: it is possible to breed two horses who are sport types themselves, and get a baby that combines parts NOT OF THE PARENTS, but of the parent’s ancestors.
In other words, the F-1 crosses may be really nice (that would be a parent who is a blend of T.B. and stock type) , but what they THROW could be a “throwback” to a less desirable ancestor. You get that happening on each side, and then you get Frankenhorse.

[camohn]

[QUOTE=allanglos;7560918]
If your mare isn’t an overo, then how about breeding her to a full JC registered TB stallion that is an overo? For instance, Risque Remarque. Homozygous black and an overo. He is also registered APHA so you would have an APHA foal that is sporty.[/QUOTE]
AA: Her mare is tovero / frame positive. Racey Remarque/ Ellusive Quest family question though. The vet that originally perpetuated breeding that line was aiming them towards racing. I have not seen any of them over fences. Since you have one in Risque Remarque I looked at his page I don’t see any of RR moving or o/f
on his page either: has confo shot and babies. Is he going over fences?

[bkkone]

[QUOTE=arlosmine;7560928]
Frankenhorses happen when LATENT genes present and combine in inopportune ways. Therefore: it is possible to breed two horses who are sport types themselves, and get a baby that combines parts NOT OF THE PARENTS, but of the parent’s ancestors.
In other words, the F-1 crosses may be really nice (that would be a parent who is a blend of T.B. and stock type) , but what they THROW could be a “throwback” to a less desirable ancestor. You get that happening on each side, and then you get Frankenhorse.[/QUOTE]

This is soooo important to remember. I had a friend that had a lovely Quarter horse/wb cross that she then bred to a wb sire. OMG…the ‘throwback’ was a shocker to say the least. A horse by committee! Don’t risk it I say.