Breeding Dressage Horses..Specialization or Jumper Blood?

[Donella]

Watching the Olympics has really made me stop and think a bit more about this question, especially in it’s relation to breeding dressage horses (obviously we know jumpers are specialists and need to be bred that way). Many of the dressage horses were strongly influenced by jumper lines especially through the dam’s side.

Obviously the horses we are seeing in London now are the result of breeding policies ten- fifteen years ago…so what was KWPN doing then that led to this success? Just glancing at the KWPN horses on the dressage ranking list of the WFSHB all of the KWPN horses on the first few pages have jumper blood up close. ie Parcival : Jazz on an Ulft mare, Painted Black is Gribaldi on a Ferro (who could jump! by Ulft) , Valegro is by the Ferro son Negro and out of a Gershwin (Voltaire/Nimmerdor) mare, Tango is Jazz/Contango , Breaking Dawn is Akribori who is Accord/Laval from a Ronald (Ramiro) dam, Totilas is Gribaldi on a Glendale dam , Uzzo is Lancet on an Indoctro dam. The list goes on…

Interestingly, if I look at the top Hanoverian horses on the first few pages only three have any jumper blood up close, two are by Espri from very dressage bred dams. One is from a Ritual mother. This studbook held the number one position much longer than any other and for many years in a row but that has now changed. I do know now that they very much encourage the infusion of jumper blood on our dressage oriented mares (the “right” jumper blood of course) though this obviously wasn’t the trend a decade or so ago…

But maybe the jumper blood has nothing to do with the standings or successes of either studbook?? I guess I am just thinking and rambling out loud here and am interested in learning more about what other breeders here think!?
Do we need a regular infusion of jumper genes to keep the athleticism and quality in the canter (among other things)or are we heading in a better direction by specializing (effectively diluting jumping blood and ability with every generation)?

[DownYonder]

Do we need a regular infusion of jumper genes to keep the athleticism and quality in the canter (among other things)or are we heading in a better direction by specializing (effectively diluting jumping blood and ability with every generation)?

In a word - YES.

As has been discussed here before, jumper blood brings the canter, brings the power, brings the athleticism, brings the hindquarters. Unfortunately for dressage breeders, serious jumper breeders never, ever consider putting one of their mares to a dressage bred stallion (or even a jumper bred stallion who competes in dressage instead of jumping). And using a jumper stallion is a bit risky for a dressage breeder looking to sell foals - do you breed your nice dressage mare to a big name dressage stallion, or do you take a chance and breed her to a jumper stallion? The first option will probably attract more buyers than the second…

[Molly_Malone]

Actually DY, not entirely true. Lagoheidor this year has been been bred to top jumper and dressage mares. For example both SPS Fenjala who had a Totilas filly this year and Caretina a GP jumper mare, are in foal to him (among others). Have a look at his Facebook page and you can see their breeding.

Maybe he’s an exception though?

[Sunnydays]

I very definitely look for jumper blood in breeding my dressage babies. I have mares by Eiger and Espri ( primarily jumper sires, though both have had direct offspring at the Olympics in both dressage and Jumping), as well as a Contendro mare. (Contendro usually gives very good trot as well as a bouncy canter, and great elasticity).
Even my D-line mare has jumper blood through Ramiro.
So far, it has worked pretty well to give me athletic foals, with balance, power and sufficient trot.
I also like to see jumper blood somewhere in the pedigree of a dressage stallion - which we have through the Sandro hit line stallions and many other dressage specialists (see thread on Lissaro, with G-line on the bottom)
Breeding is such a crap shoot, but I think keeping jumping blood in the mix is a good idea.

[Iron_Horse_Farm]

@Molly Malone;6495538

Actually DY, not entirely true. Lagoheidor this year has been been bred to top jumper and dressage mares. For example both SPS Fenjala who had a Totilas filly this year and Caretina a GP jumper mare, are in foal to him (among others). Have a look at his Facebook page and you can see their breeding.

Maybe he’s an exception though?

Yes, but Lago had a brother that competed to the highest levels of jumping and one that competed to the highest levels of dressage. Full siblings, so I think that he is one of those that simply hang out in the middle ground. Besides, I don’t think that anyone considers the L lines as dramatically singularly jumping. You say D line and everyone goes OK, dressage bred, but I don’t think that the L line necessarily evokes those same strong feelings.

[DownYonder]

Sorry, I am not familiar with Caretina. Is she owned by a true, honest to God breeder who is very familiar with jumping lines, or is she owned by a performance owner who dabbles in breeding?

As for Lagoheidor, I have been a fan of his for many years. And yes, he is a dual talented stallion, with both the pedigree and the performance stats to back it up (he competed in GP jumpers before focusing on his dressage career). I am therefore not surprised that he is getting some jumper mares, but I wonder how many breedings he brings in from those super experienced jumper breeders who breed exclusively for top of sport.

And not saying that he cannot produce for top of sport, but I just wonder how many really serious jumper breeders consider him when picking stallions for their mares.

Edited to add that another stallion I think dressage breeders could think about is Landtinus. Yes, he is another Landadel son, and he also brings blood from Argentinus and Zeus through his dam.

[andy.smaga]

Available in the US, don’t forget Edelweiss de Bonce bred for jumping and performed in Dressage GP’s with Catherine Haddad.

[Donella]

So I think many of us can agree that the right jumper blood is a positive thing when breeding dressage horses but is it NEEDED? The KWPN, Danish and some other registries are now breeding the strict specialist which will essentially dilute the jumper genetics to the point where they will no longer be of any influence.

We know the ability to jump can be killed within the first generation by using one parent that lacks the ability to jump. So what about those traits that the jumper brings to the dressage horse…will those be “killed” that quickly if we specialize or no??

[RyTimMick]

It is not that “Jumper Blood” is required. It is that the engagement and canter of the jumper horses is often lost when breeding specifically for Dressage. Hanover is now bringing Holsteiners back into their mix, because they have lost some of this type of engagement…too much up and down, and not enough ground covering.

L lines as you call them (descending from Ladykiller XX, and specifically from either Landgraf or Lord) are multi purpose. It would be hard to hold them to just jumping or dressage.

At the end of the day, using a jumper stallion to help fix a deficiency is common, but you must be breeding specifically for a discipline. How you get there depends on what you are starting with. Breeding for the “ALL AROUNDER” will get you a “Jack of all, Master of None” individual. When you are buying a horse for sport, are you buying a horse good for your discipline, or a jack of all? I think the answer for most is a horse good for your discipline. We need to breed horses that our buyers want…otherwise we will be stuck with a bunch of horses that nobody wants.

Tim

[Donella]

I changed the title of my thread because I am wondering more about the path that some registries are taking with dressage breeding whereby a stallion is designated as either jumper or dressage and is graded accordingly (ie dressage stallion can have zero jump and still pass). So the top “dressage specialists” are going to get the vast majority of the dressage breeder’s mares and so on it will go. I highly doubt that many of those dressage breeders in a registry that emphasizes specialization in this way are going to use a jumper specialist to produce a dressage horse. They are going to keep using the hot new “dressage specialist” to the point where jumper genes in dressage horses are going to be very rare. Or so one would think?? I mean, this pretty much goes on now anyways, but is encouraging such a breeding trend a good thing???

[Molly_Malone]

I think if you check Morningside Stud’s (Tom’s blog) articles, he adresses precisely your question. Though for the life of me I can’t find the link.

[Sunnydays]

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;6495973]
It is not that “Jumper Blood” is required. It is that the engagement and canter of the jumper horses is often lost when breeding specifically for Dressage. Hanover is now bringing Holsteiners back into their mix, because they have lost some of this type of engagement…too much up and down, and not enough ground covering.

L lines as you call them (descending from Ladykiller XX, and specifically from either Landgraf or Lord) are multi purpose. It would be hard to hold them to just jumping or dressage.

At the end of the day, using a jumper stallion to help fix a deficiency is common, but you must be breeding specifically for a discipline. How you get there depends on what you are starting with. Breeding for the “ALL AROUNDER” will get you a “Jack of all, Master of None” individual. When you are buying a horse for sport, are you buying a horse good for your discipline, or a jack of all? I think the answer for most is a horse good for your discipline. We need to breed horses that our buyers want…otherwise we will be stuck with a bunch of horses that nobody wants.

Tim[/QUOTE]

I think Tim puts it well. You can breed specifically for dressage while still using mares with jumper blood, displaying great canters and strong backends, or using dressage sires who show the same strengths. It is a caution, however, to look at the potential longer term effects of a specialized breeding program. You don’t want to “specialize” yourself out of the very end qualities you strive for.

[password]

And don’t forget that some of the top dressage sires, De Niro, Rubinstein, etc., received very good scores on their own jumping.

[jdeboer01]

I believe the Trakehners aren’t as specialized in their breeding. Some lines are equally successful at jumping as they are in dressage. EH Sixtus sired showjumpers and GP dressage horses. Trakehner stallion Axis (by Sixtus) was the best jumper at his approval, and is now competing at GP dressage.