Breeding for Temperament

[Heinz_57]

@MysticOakRanch

And while I agree Irish Drafts, Connemaras, etc can be great sport horses - you don’t see them in the upper levels of DRESSAGE, which is what the OP is asking about. They are more successful in jumpers and eventing. You DO see Friesians and Friesian crosses showing (with respectable scores) at the upper levels. Every year, there are some at the FEI levels. Considering there are far less Friesians (and crosses) then there are most other breeds (it is a rare breed - you can comment on their popularity, but the numbers are FAR fewer then Warmbloods), it is telling that some make it to the FEI levels every year. I am not saying they are the ONLY option, but they are one option.

I’m sure you’ll revise your first statement, because I think you mean Irish Draught, not draft, but where are you getting your info? I can think of at least a handful of RID & ISH that are currently competing successfully at UL dressage, and many more if you want to go back through history.

As for Connemaras, the population in the US is quite small - perhaps far smaller than the Friesian population, even - so you don’t see a ton of them out doing anything, anywhere. Just off the top of my head, I’ll point out that Lendon Gray had not one but two Connemara crosses make it to GP, including Seldom Seen who is in the USDF Hall of Fame.

You don’t need to trash other breeds to build yours up. Friesians are great. RIDs & ISHs are great. Connemaras are great.

Since it doesn’t appear that the OP has returned, anyway, I’m not sure there’s much point to all this debating. :lol:

[MysticOakRanch]

@Heinz 57

I’m sure you’ll revise your first statement, because I think you mean Irish Draught, not draft, but where are you getting your info? I can think of at least a handful of RID & ISH that are currently competing successfully at UL dressage, and many more if you want to go back through history.

As for Connemaras, the population in the US is quite small - perhaps far smaller than the Friesian population, even - so you don’t see a ton of them out doing anything, anywhere. Just off the top of my head, I’ll point out that Lendon Gray had not one but two Connemara crosses make it to GP, including Seldom Seen who is in the USDF Hall of Fame.

You don’t need to trash other breeds to build yours up. Friesians are great. RIDs & ISHs are great. Connemaras are great.

Since it doesn’t appear that the OP has returned, anyway, I’m not sure there’s much point to all this debating. :lol:

I’m not trashing other breeds - if you go back and look at your posts, you are doing much more “trashing” of Friesians. I find it offensive and disingenuous, to be honest. I’ve owned Warmbloods, Friesians and crosses, Morgans, and even a Welsh Cob cross. I’ve ridden many other breeds belonging to friends. I don’t trash a specific breed - what “trashing” have I done?

As for numbers at upper levels, I look at the USDF Year Book, All Breeds Awards every single year. I have friends with horses of MANY different breeds, so I’m always checking the ranks of the various breeds. Go take a look. It is a pretty good source of information for many different breeds and types of horses. Friesians are in the Yearbook every single year with horses at the FEI levels, and the crosses are starting to show up there too. I get my “numbers” from that publication (and the current results on the USDF webpage).

You don’t like Friesians, that is fine, but please don’t “trash” them because they are not your breed of choice. Many people have found them to be wonderful dressage mounts with kind temperaments and a willing and forgiving disposition.

[JB]

Given the lack of known pedigree of the OP’s mare, given the stockier type, I doubt she’s looking to produce any upper level Dressage horse That means that even stallions who have proven to produce “only” UL Eventers, and “only” UL Jumpers, have to have the ability to put some decent Dressage ability into their offspring, so could totally work

As for Friesian crosses competing successfully at UL Dressage work - I would wager that their numbers are high, relative to the breed, because of people doing the very careful, selective breeding to quality, proven mares, using quality, proven stallions. There’s not much else in the way of the Olympic disciplines, save maybe Driving, that a Friesian X would be useful for, so of the crosses bred with quality in mind, most are headed down the Dressage path.

That’s very different from the Connies and crosses bred, where a lot of them probably end up in Hunters or Eventing, than Dressage. I doubt it’s because the Connie isn’t suitable for UL Dressage, but their appeal, in part due to size I’m sure, does not lend them well to it in the minds of the buyers. But again, the Connemara stallions capable of putting out UL Event horses are surely capable of putting out a horse with enough dressage talent for what the OP is likely looking for.

I love a quality Friesian. I have seen some excellent crosses. They are all either Arab or Morgan crosses, with the exception of one who I think is an App cross (more TB build than QH build on the App side), and while she looked to be a lovely filly at 2, I have not seen her as an adult.

I simply would not choose a Friesian stallion for a mare of unknown pedigree and of a stocky type. Her wildcard is much too wild :winkgrin:

[Heinz_57]

@MysticOakRanch

I’m not trashing other breeds - if you go back and look at your posts, you are doing much more “trashing” of Friesians. I find it offensive and disingenuous, to be honest. I’ve owned Warmbloods, Friesians and crosses, Morgans, and even a Welsh Cob cross. I’ve ridden many other breeds belonging to friends. I don’t trash a specific breed - what “trashing” have I done?

As for numbers at upper levels, I look at the USDF Year Book, All Breeds Awards every single year. I have friends with horses of MANY different breeds, so I’m always checking the ranks of the various breeds. Go take a look. It is a pretty good source of information for many different breeds and types of horses. Friesians are in the Yearbook every single year with horses at the FEI levels, and the crosses are starting to show up there too. I get my “numbers” from that publication (and the current results on the USDF webpage).

You don’t like Friesians, that is fine, but please don’t “trash” them because they are not your breed of choice. Many people have found them to be wonderful dressage mounts with kind temperaments and a willing and forgiving disposition.

Are you confusing me with someone else? I’ve not posted on this thread until now, and I’ve only mentioned Friesians in about a dozen posts that I can find over the years, most of which referred only to individual horses and their particular strengths and weaknesses. I know some very nice, very well ridden Friesians and crosses and I cheer them on just like everybody else. The handful that I’ve ridden and handled were quite fun and they are always a crowd pleaser.

I have no bias against any breed, really, but since my first and foremost interest is eventing with a secondary love for dressage, a Friesian or Friesian cross doesn’t really suit my purposes. You made the statement that you don’t see Irish Draughts or Connemaras at the upper levels and that is simply untrue, whether or not they appear in the all breeds awards. They aren’t as common and they may be more popular for eventing and jumpers, but they ARE there.

[MysticOakRanch]

@Heinz 57

Are you confusing me with someone else? I’ve not posted on this thread until now, and I’ve only mentioned Friesians in about a dozen posts that I can find over the years, most of which referred only to individual horses and their particular strengths and weaknesses. I know some very nice, very well ridden Friesians and crosses and I cheer them on just like everybody else. The handful that I’ve ridden and handled were quite fun and they are always a crowd pleaser.

I have no bias against any breed, really, but since my first and foremost interest is eventing with a secondary love for dressage, a Friesian or Friesian cross doesn’t really suit my purposes. You made the statement that you don’t see Irish Draughts or Connemaras at the upper levels and that is simply untrue, whether or not they appear in the all breeds awards. They aren’t as common and they may be more popular for eventing and jumpers, but they ARE there.

Sorry, I had you mixed up with a poster on the first page. But you said I was trashing other breeds - and I have not done so. Got me a bit excited. I have not trashed any breeds.

I do NOT see these breeds in UL Dressage, at least not here on the West Coast - I stated that I don’t see them, and it is true. I’ve seen a single ISH at the FEI levels in all my years of dressage. One. About 7 or 8 years ago. I’ve not seen any Connies beyond 2nd level, and we do have breeders of both breeds here in Cali. So when people say those horses are more suited to dressage - and then say Friesians and crosses are NOT suited, it goes against what I see in the show ring, AND what I see in the USDF results year after year.

I DO see these breeds eventing - and doing quite well, so of course, since that is your interest, you will see them in that discipline. I do see the FXs in dressage and combined driving, and OP asked specifically about dressage AND temperament. My initial advice was to really look at the uncertainty of breeding the mare AND the true cost of breeding. Then, as people started offering up ideas for breeding, I simply added the idea of a Friesian cross. Since the well bred Friesian does tend to cross well, and does tend to throw a good temperament. Which is why you see these crosses all over the place with backyard riders - and why some of them are not high quality - people are breeding for hair and temperament. They aren’t always breeding for dressage.

Sorry I mixed you up with the other poster on the first page, who was making negative statements about the breed based on a single breeder she had visited.

[Heinz_57]

@MysticOakRanch

Sorry I mixed you up with the other poster on the first page, who was making negative statements about the breed based on a single breeder she had visited.

No worries, really. I like Friesians, and even the lesser quality individuals and crosses always still bring something to the table, even if it’s simply a very willing, tractable disposition (which is quite valuable considering the majority of the population doesn’t need and will never utilize upper level talent of any sort).

I agree that breeding a completely unknown mare is an expensive crapshoot…not something I would undertake, but to each their own! I’m fairly certain the OP was scared off a while ago.

[out_west]

JJ Tate seems to find Connemara crosses suitable for upper level dressage! (Look at Developing Grand Prix this year)

[Come_Shine]

Rotspon just won Hanoverian stallion of the year and one of the points was the rideability and lovely temperament he instills in his progeny.

[Majestic_Gaits]

Agree with others, that it is a gamble not knowing your mares lines. You mentioned she was a crossbred with exact pedigree unknown. Do you know some of it or have an idea? How do you know she is a crossbred?

If she is a good mare in conformation and movement and been good in sport you can get a certificate of pedigree type registration at least to start documentation on the breeding and put unknown on the dam side.

My suggestion would be Navarone (Jus de Pomme x Armstrong). Great jump, good dressage and all arounder. Very ammy friendly offspring and himself too. And excellent rocket fuel for fresh semen.