My mare has recently retired from competition (hunter) and I am thinking about putting her in foal but have no idea where to start! She is a stocky crossbred type with exact breeding unknown but excellent confirmation. 16hh, Flaxen Chestnut, and extremely laid back. She is the perfect all rounder and I would really like to breed something with a similar temperament and bone but more quality in movement as I would like to go further with dressage as well. What breeds/stallions do you recommend? Temperament is a key factor for me and performance comes second.
Breeding a mare like this (with unknown pedigree) is a really, really huge gamble-- and breeding is already always a gamble and getting the perfect temperament even more so. I would look for a nice young horse that you can try under saddle.
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I agree, it is better to go buy a young horse, depending on your experience even a weanlig though there are plenty of nice 3-4 year olds out there. I bred my unknown mare to a dressage stallion and sadly at 9 1/2 this mare is retired due to soundness issues. I learned from this and a few years back bought a coming 4 year old with very well known bloodlines and solid history from both dam and stallion. This young horse is FEI quality and I spent a lot less with a purchase price up front compared to all the prior breeding, upbringing, and huge vet costs of the other mare.
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I agree if you want exactly what you describe you should buy it. It will be at least 3-4 years before your foal is able to compete.
If you are determined to breed your mare, and registering the resulting foal is not a priority… I would consider a nice moving Morgan stallion. While the breed is not known for ability to sit, they check all your boxes.
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Just curious, why did you pick this one? I am a Morgan fan, and I have seen some lovely ones - they don’t have the big scope of a Warmblood, but many are nice movers, and they tend to be sound and sane and smart. But - why not recommend one that has been producing dressage/sport horse offspring? There are several Morgan stallions out there that have competed (past Training/First Level) AND have offspring that are competing. Personally, I’d look at one of those if considering such a breeding. I can think of a few that are even competing at 4th level or higher.
OP - it is true, you are dealing with unknown genetics with your mare. Sometimes that gamble works, sometimes it doesn’t. I have a pony that is the result of such a mix - purebred sire, unknown rescue mare. He’s lovely, and an OK mover. Sometimes these mixes work, sometimes they don’t. The bigger thing I would point out - breeding is EXPENSIVE. People think about the stud fee, and that is it. Reality is, that is just a drop in the bucket.
If you board your mare and don’t own your own property, factor in board costs. Many stables charge extra for a pregnant mare, and many will require you to send her out for foaling. Then you will have 3 to 4 years of board on the foal before you can ever ride. And probably several months of training before you get on the foal.
Breeding costs - multiple ultrasounds before and after breeding, shipping/collecting fees, insemination fees, and then you HOPE your mare takes. You may want to start with a breeding soundness exam (more $). Not all mares take on first or second breeding. All these vet visits cost money. Then, assuming the mare takes, you may have to put her on regumate for a while. More money. More ultrasounds as her pregnancy progresses. Extra vaccines. Extra feed. Vet fees for a well foal exam after the foal is born. MORE feed. Then 3 years of hoping the foal doesn’t kill itself - which I think most of them try to do at some point in their childhood.
I bred for many years - and figured it took about $5k to “create” a weanling - and that is with no board costs (and not considering the cost of the mare, and assuming the mare took by 2nd insemination, and no foaling difficulties). So you might run the numbers and decide if it is worth it.
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First of all, it makes much more sense to buy a weanling or yearling. Or a two or three year old. Almost anything is more cost effective than breeding and raising horses yourself. Seriously, it’s more cost effective to just flush a few thousand dollars down the toilet.
If you are looking at crossbreds, you can pick up NICE crossbred youngsters for very little. Definitely for less than breeding your own. I don’t know where you are located, but I would recommend considering looking in Canada. You would have a few extra thousand dollars in your pocket to set aside to spend on help with breaking/training or on some nice tack. Your mare is retiring, so there could be the possibility that she would be harder to get in foal.
That having been said, I have no philosophical argument against breeding a horse that had a long, useful, sound career, whether it is a crossbred itself or not. This is a much better scenario than breeding some fancy warmblood mare that was too physically or mentally unsound to have a decent career but has “good bloodlines.”
I would not breed to a Morgan. I have nothing against Morgans, I think they are lovely. They have a reputation for great temperaments but the Morgan crossbreds I have known have been way too hot to be useful in the hunter ring (or hunt field) and have not been stellar dressage horses either. Also, they tend to be a very unpopular size. 14.2-15.3 may be a very serviceable size IRL, but it chops a LOT off a horse’s sale value should you ever decide to (or be forced to) sell.
Breeding to a WB is a reasonable choice, but I would choose carefully something that has proven it’s temperament with a good career. You could also consider an Irish Draught or an Irish Draught cross. Those are very mentally and physically sturdy, and very useful all around horses. That would add some size and bone, but not all of them are huge horses. Quarter Horses have wonderful temperaments, but I’d be careful to look for something with a career that has proven its physical soundness. Also, I think you might not get the movement you are looking for with that cross. If you’d rather go smaller, I’d look at Connemaras. I’d tend to avoid a draft or draft cross if you are looking to add a little more movement and dressage ability to your youngster.
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A wonderful idea, can you supply links to the stallions you speak of please?
Go to the USDF All Breeds Awards and look up the Morgans - that is a good place to start. Go to MDA (Morgan Dressage Association), another good place to start.
OP, another option, since temperament is so important - Friesian? There are more and more of the Friesian crosses out there. I’ve had a few judges note that they like these horses because of their movement and temperament.
And of course, there are always the Warmbloods - just do some research for one that throws a good temperament. Some of the registries (such as Old NA) will register a cross by an approved stallion.
And don’t forget to look at some of the large Welsh stallions doing dressage.
Those crosses are very popular here.
There are warmbloods out there with known good temperaments. You could call a couple of big warmblood breeders and ask which of their stallions can provide it. The Rubinstein line stallions are known for that and they are used a lot to create Hunters as well as Dressage horses. I find with crosses you will want something that stamps their offspring. You can determine that by doing pedigree research. I use Sporthorse Data and Horse Telex a lot as they have many pictures as well as performance results.
I agree with several things here.
Breeding a mare of unknown breeding, who is possibly a mix of 3 or more breeds, is pretty risky in terms of the conformation you’d get. Temperament is more reliable, since a laid back mare to a laid back-producing stallion is pretty unlikely to get you something spicy. Unlikely - not unheard of.
If the cost of buying a 3-4yo, or even a 2yo if you’re willing to get something with the potential you want, but not yet started, is what’s leading you to breeding, then starting today, put away monthly amounts equal to what you’d be paying to get the mare cultured and treated if necessary, the stallion fee and associated collection costs, the actual cost of breeding her (based on what your vet says is a starting point), the extra vaccinations, ultrasounds for checking twins, increased feeding requirements down the road, then the typical cost in your area for foaling her out, wellness checks, vaccinations, deworming, farrier visits for the foal, add in any boarding fees you’d accumulate for the foal once weaned, if you’d be boarding. Add in 10-20% more for unexpected emergency calls, and by the time 3 years is up, you’ll have a boat load of money to spend on a nice youngster 
If you’re looking for something all around, but able to some more Dressage work (what level are you thinking? Any horse can do 2nd Level if they are sound), then I really do agree with a Morgan. IF it’s the right type of Morgan, which means a TYPEY Morgan, not the more modernized saddlebred type 
The truly typey Morgans seem to produce very nice crosses very reliably, and I suspect that has to do with how prepotent they are. I’ve seen it over and over, they look more like Morgans than whatever they were bred to. I’m not really into who those stallions are, but after noticing this aspect, I spoke to several Morgan-owning friends who know more about the breed than I do, and they concurred that they have seen the same thing.
Personally, I would not go with a Friesian. I have seen some nice crosses, but I’ve seen a lot more train wrecks And I just wouldn’t trust a cross with this mare to be one of the nicer ones, not with her being stocky type. If the foal ended up stocky but with a long, weak back and loin, that wouldn’t be good, and I don’t think any of the more appropriate stallions will be allowed to breed outside the breed. And, if they aren’t approved stallions, so would breed to this mare, they are not likely the appropriate quality.
A good WB stallion is also not a bad idea, but you would absolutely need one who is very prepotent for producing a type, out of a variety of mares, including mares built like the OP’s. The OP didn’t mention whether she’d like shorter or taller than her mare, so whether a GRP, or “regular” WB, or a Welsh would be more appropriate, I’m not sure. But there certainly are stallions in those categories who are prepotent for producing a type, and temperament.
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Friesian crosses do have some popularity, but I don’t think that popularity is based in performance–it’s based on something else altogether. There also is the situation that because Friesians are so popular, many have been bred with very little discretion regarding quality. If you are looking to breed something to ride and actually USE, I would be a little more particular.
One of the big problems about breeding for temperament is that EVERY stallion owner, without exception, is going to brag about what a great temperament the stallion has, etc. It’s really hard to know when that is true or not. More than once I have gotten a lovely spiel about a stallion from the owner/agent, only to later talk to grooms who had very different things to say about the horse’s personality. So, I think it’s worth reaching out to someone who had bred to the stallion before to ask about their experience with those offspring or someone else who knows the stallion to make sure you get an accurate picture.
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This is a bit off topic, but I have to respond as someone who use to breed Friesian crosses, and did it specifically for performance. One of my youngsters was USDF HOTY AA at 2nd level last year (not All breeds, but HOTY). I had a stallion who showed Grand Prix, and more recently, as a schoolmaster, helped a young rider get her SIlver Medal. One of my mares was Top Ten at CDS Championships a couple of years ago. One of my youngsters was Top Ten for California Eventing Championships. One was a winner on the East Coast Intercollegiate jumping championships. And so on…
You could make the same statement about any breed - there are responsible breeders, and irresponsible ones. Warmbloods, Arabians, Morgans, QHs, Friesian crosses, Andalusians, the list goes on and on. Evaluate breeding stock carefully - look for performance bloodlines, look for quality, don’t get taken in by fairy dust and golden fluff.
Most of the “Baroque” breeds (Friesian, Andalusian, Lusitano, etc) face that issue - some of the breedings occur for fluff, others for performance. In the Warmblood world, you get some who breed for rideablity and performance, and others who just breed anything (usually Tbred or lame reject WB) to the “flavor of the month” for a quick $. Don’t lump all breeders/breeds into the same category, please.
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Right, some careful, selective breeders like you did/do the crosses for performance. But Bee is right - in general, the popularity of a Friesian cross is a lot more about the pretty (usually black) heavily feathered high-stepping horse, and that’s it, there’s no substance under the fluff. Just looking for Friesian crosses on any of the popular sale sites shows you how many relatively non-functional horses there are
I definitely would not use a Friesian for a mare of a stocky type and of unknown breeding. For all that’s known, some of that heft might be from draft influence, and that could go all sorts of wrong ways. A stallion of a light horse type - Arabian, TB, or a WB with heavy TB/Arabian influence, or even a QH or Paint with lots of TB blood, would be a better choice. But I wouldn’t breed this mare in the first place, not with such unknown breeding.
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I’m glad that you commented on this thread to offer another point of view because I think your opinion is a valid one and I think it makes for a good discussion, but I do disagree. There may be some Friesians and Friesian crosses that are successful, but IME that is the exception rather than the rule. A couple of years ago I visited a well respected Friesian breeding farm, that specifically marketed itself as breeding for performance and had stallions with performance records. I looked at their breeding stock and young stock and was really not impressed. The mares were of uneven quality. Some had questionable characteristics but were still being used in the breeding program. The young stock were particularly unimpressive. I saw a lot of problems among the young horses that would make them extremely difficult if not impossible to sell if they were warmbloods–unimpressive gaits, some conformation issues, and a number of puffy joints that I would have x-rayed for OCDs. And yet–every one of those young horses had a big price tag and apparently they were selling. I saw very little evidence for quality based selectivity.
Although these people claimed they were “breeding for sport” they were totally not bothered by horses that were unable or unwilling to canter. They bragged about a horse jumping an 18" log as evidence of “jumping ability.” Obviously this was just one farm, but it was clear to me that there was simply NO comparison to what is expected from a performance bred Friesian vs. what is expected from a performance bred WB.
Also, I think there are a lot of breeds that are indeed very purpose bred and not bred for hair or looks: warmbloods, Irish Drafts, Connemaras, and ranch bred QHs. While some WB breeders may try to “breed anything” (that’s a great point–it sure does happen) most warmblood registries hold inspections where stock is inspected and graded. Inferior or lame mares and their offspring are excluded from registration. Also, FWIW, many of those poorly thought out backyard TB / WB crosses are recognized for what they are sell for very little if the mare does not have a performance record or has not been accepted into a studbook. It also is incredibly difficult for a warmblood stallion to be approved for breeding. I’m not going to go into that here, but it’s a heck of a lot more than pedigree and trotting around in hand. Some WB registries require X-rays, and extensive under saddle testings or require an impressive performance record.
I’m not necessarily advising the OP to breed to a WB. And I certainly am not denigrating that accomplishments of Mystic Oak’s fine horses! I just think that you have a better chance of breeding a good horse when you go with a breed that has generations of horses that have been selectively bred for the job you want the horse to do.
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In order to breed for temperament, you have to fully understand the genetics/bloodlines in play. Since you know nothing about your mare’s pedigree, this is impossible.
What I’m trying to say is that your mare may come from genetics that typically throw tough horses and she is a fluke. Without knowing her background, it is impossible to know what she will reproduce.
I also recommend that you buy a young horse suited to your needs rather than trying to breed an unknown.
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I am curious why no one is recommending a TB stallion. Because of the dressage goal? It seems to me that would be a safer cross with a stocky cross bred mare of unknown breeding. At least you would have a refining influence and have less of a risk of an awkwardly put together horse.
Surely there must be TB stallions with good temperament and nice movement? (and I say this as someone who has not actually looked for one myself). Failing that, I would lean to a more refined WB known for temperament, maybe an R line stallion.
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I did Not not anyone specific, since we don’t know what this mare looks like. Recommendations might vary whether the mare is stocky because of draft-looking breeding, vs QH-looking breeding
Because of the dressage goal? It seems to me that would be a safer cross with a stocky cross bred mare of unknown breeding. At least you would have a refining influence and have less of a risk of an awkwardly put together horse.
Surely there must be TB stallions with good temperament and nice movement? (and I say this as someone who has not actually looked for one myself). Failing that, I would lean to a more refined WB known for temperament, maybe an R line stallion.
Agree, and there are those who are more compact themselves, yet still refined (as opposed to coarse) such as Sea Accounts (NOT saying he’s the best choice, just an example) who is quite capable of producing horses good enough to do well enough in the Dressage phase of Eventing
I’ve been to plenty of WB inspections over the years where lame and inferior mares were accepted - into the lower books, but accepted (Old NA, RPSI for example). And some registries don’t require inspection of mares at all if they are in the “correct” registries (KWPN is one example). A foal can be in the lowest books, it is still a “Warmblood”.
And while I agree Irish Drafts, Connemaras, etc can be great sport horses - you don’t see them in the upper levels of DRESSAGE, which is what the OP is asking about. They are more successful in jumpers and eventing. You DO see Friesians and Friesian crosses showing (with respectable scores) at the upper levels. Every year, there are some at the FEI levels. Considering there are far less Friesians (and crosses) then there are most other breeds (it is a rare breed - you can comment on their popularity, but the numbers are FAR fewer then Warmbloods), it is telling that some make it to the FEI levels every year. I am not saying they are the ONLY option, but they are one option.
There are quality and non-quality breeders of EVERY SINGLE breed. Visiting one farm and being disappointed should not condemn the entire breed. I’ve seen more then one Warmblood breeding farm that was disappointing. And more then one that bred for fancy, but NOT good temperaments. You see a lot of people “over horsed” at shows on Warmbloods. That doesn’t condemn that type of horse, but they are not for every rider.
As for OP, as I pointed out in my first post, breeding is expensive. Results of breeding a mixed breed mare are tenuous. It may be less expensive to buy a young horse. But OP asked about breeding for temperament, and the Friesian usually throws a very kind, gentle temperament. And if the right stallion is selected, they pretty consistently improve movement. Sadly, a lot of people are more concerned with hair then movement, so you get what you breed for. As for what the mare will contribute to the mix - no one knows.
I’m sorry, what? Straight off the top of my head, Steeped in Luck is ID, Kynynmont Gunsmoke’s Gideon ridden by JJ Tate is Connemara. I can’t actually think of a Friesian upper level horse on the scene right now, which isn’t to say they aren’t out there. But just because you couldn’t think of an Irish horse at the upper levels doesn’t mean they don’t exist, either (though I’m sure their overall numbers are far fewer than Friesians).
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