Breeding horses: ethical dilemma

[hey101]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

Pregnancy is a HUGE risk for any animal (human, too)! I think someone who subjects an animal to that risk better have done plenty of due diligence to ensure that the foal is healthy, which includes genetics research, breeding horses with good temperament, ensuring that there is a market/owner for said horse, a likely job for said horse, and responsibility for a healthy pregnancy and future for the foal. Ethical breeding is very expensive and labor-intensive, and good breeders really pour their hearts and souls into their breeding programs

Very odd discourse here. OP, what is your point? Horses should never be bred?

I’d say that horses amongst any of the domestic animals have the most attention paid to bloodlines and genetics. Beef cattle secondary to that.

When I was in my early 20s, I met a guy. We fell in love and we got married and had a couple of kids. I certainly did not do a genetic work up of his family tree before we decided to have two children that have turned out healthy and wonderful. I myself was fortunate to have two very easy pregnancies and births. The experience of the first certainly did not preclude me from going back for another child.

Pigs, chickens, sheep, and goats? Perhaps I can become more educated, but I highly doubt there’s a stud rooster out there that people are clamoring to breed too. Animals are bred and produced for food primarily and with the case of horses, recreation and sport for the most part these days. Careful breeding for centuries had led to the likes of Secretariat, Sapphire, Totilas.

I myself kept chickens for years and every now and then a chick hen that I purchased turned into a rooster and it would breed with my broody hens and then I’d have more chickens. Neither hen nor rooster seemed overly concerned that I was forcing an unnatural pregnancy on it.

[paintedpennypony]

Why do you think it’s odd? I’ve said at least once upthread that I’m not anti-breeding. Open-ended questions don’t require a point either

[hey101]

I’m just trying to understand your point because it’s not very clear. Are you against breeding yourself? Then fine don’t do it. There are risks with breeding any living being. If you don’t want to risk your own animals, then no one would question that decision.

But are you able to acknowledge that careful breeding by dedicated breeders has led to exceptional equine athletes that continue to be refined?

I think you’d be preaching to the choir if you said something along the lines of “I’m against backyard breeding just because it has a uterus, it should produce a foal of if it can’t do any other job”

[paintedpennypony]

I was vegan/vegetarian for a decade plus. Now owning a little micro-farm we are moving towards raising our own food animals and deer hunting. There are many similarities in the way people have responded in this thread and the way people respond when you point out that industrial animal agriculture is actually extremely evil and unethical. But people don’t want to hear that because it’s uncomfortable to consider!

IMO the anthropomorphizing criticisms are falling short, incorrect, and intellectually lazy. I’m also a little surprised — there are who knows how many posters on COTH asking how to improve their horse’s comfort, fitness, nutrition, saddle fit, etc to minimize their fear, pain, etc. But pondering the ethics of breeding is a bridge too far and anthropomorphizing? Hmm…

[Texarkana]

@paintedpennypony

Now owning a little micro-farm we are moving towards raising our own food animals and deer hunting.

I am still honestly trying to understand the thought process:

How is breeding a horse purposely any more or less ethical than breeding a food animal? (Not talking about industrial ag, I just mean in general)

[hey101]

@paintedpennypony

I was vegan/vegetarian for a decade plus. Now owning a little micro-farm we are moving towards raising our own food animals and deer hunting. There are many similarities in the way people have responded in this thread and the way people respond when you point out that industrial animal agriculture is actually extremely evil and unethical. But people don’t want to hear that because it’s uncomfortable to consider!

So let me get this straight. You were vegan for a decade and now you’re raising FOOD ANIMALS and coming on this forum to ask for absolution that that’s OK?

ETA- of course it’s OK. I don’t think you’re going to get any arguments here of people who greatly respect those who grow their own vegetables and fruits and raise their own animals for consumption. But I think you need to go take a long look in the mirror, cause you seem to have a lot of Internal angst. But to try to denigrate equine breeders who put a lot of time and thought into their program is just unfair. Calling them unethical is beyond the pale

[Scaramouch]

Why would breeding, specifically, be more of an ethical dilemma than any of the other things we do with horses that cause them temporary discomfort and elevate their risk of injury/death?

[paintedpennypony]

People change?

I’m not asking for absolution?

The OP begins and ends with: I am not comfortable with this train of thought, it is not a belief I personally hold, and I’m wondering what other people think of it.

[paintedpennypony]

We have talked about getting cows but I have the same mental block with that as I have with breeding horses. Right now we just have layers.

I’m also not saying one is more or less acceptable than the other

[Texarkana]

I can tell you I’ve had roosters who definitely aren’t considering the consent of the hen, that’s for sure.

I also really hate the concept of “consent.” We need it for legal purposes (especially WRT sexual misconduct), but it is not something that can be applied to any and all situations.

For example, just because someone chooses to become pregnant doesn’t mean they want a difficult and painful pregnancy full of health scares. Yes, you might understand it’s a risk, but just because you became pregnant doesn’t mean you are “fine” with negative outcomes.

Or like when unplanned pregnancies happen and people say, “you should have known it was a possibility when you had sex.” Yes we all know pregnancy is a possible outcome of sex. That doesn’t mean you should only do it if you’re trying to become pregnant. My friend got pregnant using two forms of birth control. She was in a position where she could consider it a blessing, but many others are not so lucky.

Sorry… I’ve gone on a tangent…

[paintedpennypony]

You seem to be taking this personally. I am not angsty over this and I am certainly not trying to denigrate considerate breeders. I hope you have a peaceful evening!

[GraceLikeRain]

@Texarkana

How is breeding a horse purposely any more or less ethical than breeding a food animal? (Not talking about industrial ag, I just mean in general)

It isn’t? Or maybe it is? That’s the whole point of having a dialogue.

A purpose bred horse sure lives a heck of a lot longer but then again the other is being bred intentionally to die so someone can have a hamburger or a bbq sandwich. Then again if you’re breeding to personally slaughter you could create a great life birth to death. If you breed a horse how certain can anyone be that they can provide the same great life for potentially 30 years.

I think it’s actually something worth considering and discussing. If nothing else it’s an interesting thought exercise.

COTH does advice well but nuanced dialogue giving space for differing perspectives very poorly.

[hey101]

Nope, definitely not taking it personally. You asked a strange question and myself and others have given you responses that I don’t think you actually wanted. Especially revealed. That you yourself are actually breeding animals for food consumption. It’s just a weird strange thread.

[Bogey2]

This is one of the weirdest discussions I have seen here LOL. I may be getting too old for the board
I think the real ethical dilemma is when people breed a mare instead of buying a young horse because they think they will save money. I have seen this go wrong many times over the years. Leave breeding to the breeders or if you think your mare is exceptional then lease her to a breeder…who will only take her if she is REALLY exceptional.
Is it ok that I used “she”, or are horses now gender neutral?

[mmeqcenter]

Call me crazy, but I think there are far more prevalent and shitty horse-keeping practices that cause discomfort that horses don’t “consent” to than breeding, including the errant backyard breeder.

Also, for the people griping about someone wanting to breed their mare to try to save money and still get a nice horse instead of buying a $30,000 foal, puh-lease. There’s a whole bunch of shitty “professional breeders” out there, too, it’s not just the backyard geniuses, and I really don’t think Susie with her one foal in her backyard from her special mare are the problem. Are you guaranteed a nice, easy pregnancy, foaling, and rearing? No. But a lot of people can dole out $30,000 over the course of six years a lot easier than they can in one payment to purchase. And that one payment to purchase still comes with all the same risks of injury and death to the horse on the ground for the next five years.

[Texarkana]

While we’re on the topic of the ethics of breeding:

When I decided I wanted to begin breeding horses myself, I hit my own ethical dilemma. Mine had nothing to do with consent. It had to do with the fact that I felt guilty bringing more horses into this world when there are already so many horses who need homes.

However, I ultimately decided that we need horse breeders and we need purpose-bred horses. Unwanted horses will unfortunately always exist, but if we want horse sports to continue, we need wanted horses and the unwanted horse population cannot always fulfill that need.

Also, while I don’t agree with adding to the unwanted horse population, I HATE the gate-keeping of horse breeding. You know, telling someone, “you’re not experienced enough to breed your horse.” Or their horse isn’t “nice” enough. Or the owner isn’t wealthy enough. Etc. etc. Because once again, we need horse breeders and we need wanted horses. Everyone has to start somewhere when it comes to learning about breeding. No, I don’t think anyone should breed a mare just because she has a uterus or they want a cute baby. But, if you think you can create a mating that will fulfill a need and are prepared to make sure that horse has a home and a purpose, more power to you! We should be lifting each other up, not cutting each other down.

[Moss]

My initial prospectus for my PhD was on a similar topic, but it was on the paraphilia. My committee said no because they were worried it would damage my mental health. I thought about relaying my findings on here, but first, it was so long ago, and two, the six months of research I did messed me up enough that I had nightmares. That’s why I hate the whole “consent” training in horsemanship. Every time I see that phrase, I get weird flashbacks.

So, yeah, I feel like I’m getting too old, too. And I’m a university professor where my students talk about all sorts of (class related) topics.

[beowulf]

OP, I think you’ve stumbled on a ‘thought thread’ that the more you pull, the more questions you will have. COTH may not be able to answer them, or even entertain them in a civil way.

The entire world is built on the “non-consentual” exploitation of other organisms. It’s been this way since the first protist developed the ability to consume other cells through phagocytosis. We’re a long way from that early lineage, but we still cut down trees to build our houses, large cats still hunt big game, and wasps parasitize and inseminate spiders to feed their young. Even herbivores exploit grass, trees, algae to survive.

Would it help to reframe it? Rather than forced reproduction or it being unethical to own animals, consider that like everything else, nothing exists for free or without the destruction or exploitation of some other phyla - the best you can do is minimize suffering. It’s all related - from breeding a horse to owning a pet snake that prefers eating living mice. Even vegans cause a harmful (biological) footprint by eating living tissue (plants, fungi). The best you can do is live a life that wastes little, make decisions that harm as few organisms as possible, and do your best to tend to animals in a way that minimizes pain, suffering, or prolonged unhappiness.

I don’t think there is a black/white answer to your question. It likely boils down to personal beliefs and your ability to manage/take care of all animals in your care. Horses - and many domestic animals - would not exist in their current state without humans. As someone involved in processing meat, I frame it like this: they have one bad day.

Being a pregnant mare probably still beats being eaten alive by a mountain lion.

[NoSuchPerson]

@Bogey2

I may be getting too old for the board

Funny, I’ve found myself thinking the same thing lately.

[CanteringCarrot]

@Texarkana

While we’re on the topic of the ethics of breeding:

When I decided I wanted to begin breeding horses myself, I hit my own ethical dilemma. Mine had nothing to do with consent. It had to do with the fact that I felt guilty bringing more horses into this world when there are already so many horses who need homes.

However, I ultimately decided that we need horse breeders and we need purpose-bred horses. Unwanted horses will unfortunately always exist, but if we want horse sports to continue, we need wanted horses and the unwanted horse population cannot always fulfill that need.

Also, while I don’t agree with adding to the unwanted horse population, I HATE the gate-keeping of horse breeding. You know, telling someone, “you’re not experienced enough to breed your horse.” Or their horse isn’t “nice” enough. Or the owner isn’t wealthy enough. Etc. etc. Because once again, we need horse breeders and we need wanted horses. Everyone has to start somewhere when it comes to learning about breeding. No, I don’t think anyone should breed a mare just because she has a uterus or they want a cute baby. But, if you think you can create a mating that will fulfill a need and are prepared to make sure that horse has a home and a purpose, more power to you! We should be lifting each other up, not cutting each other down.

That’s the thing though, if the result of a breeding will fulfill an actual need, and there’s a home, purpose, and resources to care for both the mare and foal, most people won’t find any issue(s) there. It’s just that some “think” there’s a purpose when there really isn’t.

I do think that some level of scrutiny is healthy, and I don’t think that people are necessarily gate keeping my merely expressing their opinions and views on the matter. I believe that a certain level of discretion should be exercised when you’re going to breed. Especially because anything could happen. If something happens to you (general you) will these horses have a home? Do you have a plan? I know that many horse owners don’t consider these things but it’s worth pondering over. I know some people that don’t breed their otherwise suitable dogs because they’re uncomfortable with that many puppies out there that could end up in bad situations regardless of how much work they do to prevent it. They can’t live with that. Others don’t feel that way, and that’s fine.

Yes, we do need breeders. Good, responsible, and thoughtful breeders. I’m not out to cut anyone down, I just want people to think, be responsible, and create wanted horses. Ideally not passing on faults (health, major confo issues, behavioral issues, etc). So I’m fine with there being a healthy level of criticism.