Breeding horses: ethical dilemma

[paintedpennypony]

Prefacing all of this with the huge disclaimer that I understand this is a major can of worms! I’m genuinely curious about other people’s perspectives and am not trying to incite arguments! I don’t love that I feel this way hence looking for outside thoughts.

It’s been a life goal of mine to have a lovely, quality mare and get a foal from her. However, I have a massive mental block with the whole breeding horses (and animals in general) thing. I know biology takes over when a mare is in heat but isn’t the whole thing kind of… uncomfortable, forced reproduction vibes? Reflexively, I want to call it non-consensual but whether animals can consent is another discussion entirely. Pregnancy and birth are so physically uncomfortable that the thought of putting my mare through that seems unethical. Maybe I’m projecting?

When I follow the train of thought that animal breeding = unethical because the animal can’t “consent” (in the same way that humans define consent, with an understanding of the short/long term implications of specific decisions) then what I arrive to is owning animals period is unethical. This is not what I personally believe — clearly, as someone with 20 pets of various species — but it seems like the natural extension of this logic.

Very curious to hear other’s thoughts on this. How do you rationalize the potential ethical dilemma of breeding?

[mommy_peanut]

No, just no.
To all of it.
They are not humans.
Stop anthropomorphising

[paintedpennypony]

Where’s the line between ethically considerate and anthropomorphizing?

[CanteringCarrot]

While yeah, labor is not comfortable and can be difficult (or deadly in some instances), horses in the wild often have quite a few foals. They don’t think about it like we do. We shouldn’t think that they do.

With AI and embryo transfer, a lot of the natural component is taken out of it, but for the most part, I don’t know that it’s hugely harmful.

What bothers me is when someone uses a surrogate mare because their mare is too precious to risk. As if the other mares life is of less value and seen as a throwaway. If the mare is out competing at high levels still during her prime breeding years, sure. Or if they want more than one foal from her in a year.

People will also breed anything with balls or a uterus. That part gets me…oh but I love maresy and a baby would be so nice to have and I’ll keep it forever. That’s all great and romantic but does mare really need to pass on anything? Then when the foal grows up to be what you don’t want, then what?

Then you have certain industries (racing, for example) that create a lot of waste. They breed many foals hoping that just one will be their money maker while dozens of others end up God knows where.

Then there’s the whole PMU farm thing.

Those are the things I think about when it comes to ethics.

[Moss]

@CanteringCarrot

People will also breed anything with balls or a uterus. That part gets me…oh but I love maresy and a baby would be so nice to have and I’ll keep it forever. That’s all great and romantic but does mare really need to pass on anything? Then when the foal grows up to be what you don’t want, then what?

This is what I thought this thread was about. I hate backyard breeding and over breeding. It’s getting to the point that I know so many people with a stud who will breed their rank stud to anything.

Also, great response.

And, to OP, you’re overthinking this. Horses don’t have a prefrontal cortex which is the part of the brain in the frontal lobe that is responsible for reason and logical thinking; they can’t think about these types of things. If you’re breeding just to get a baby, honestly, don’t waste your time, money, and energy. Go buy your dream horse instead.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

On a very personal level, I get what the OP is saying. Pregnancy grosses me out (I’ve never wanted kids) so I would never breed an animal, or want to work on a farm that bred animals.

But that is a very purely personal thing. The ethics that make me uncomfortable is that I know people who don’t think they are backyard breeders…but they have collections of older (5-8-year-old horses) with “good bloodlines” they bred from artificially inseminating their mares with stallion sperm they bought because they thought the mares would make “great moms” and they insisted there was demand for the foals they were producing. There was not, and they haven’t even put in the training in all the horses they bred to have serviceable careers as saddle horses. The now-adult horses are just sitting.

I personally think it’s more ethical to go to a professional breeder than take a random chance on your own mare and hope the foal works out. But I can understand maybe trying once, for a once-in-a-lifetime thing for yourself or a family member. People who do this repeatedly, trying to DIY to make a buck and don’t have a plan to break the horses and train them if they can’t sell them young leave me SMH. People who insist they can afford to breed multiple foals but somehow don’t have the money to do anything but halter-break stock that doesn’t get sold when young, and don’t have the skills themselves.

Sorry, rant over.

[findeight]

If you personally do not feel like you want to put your mare through pregnancy then don’t. No explanation necessary…we really do not need more horses. But stop overthinking your reasons and assigning human reasoning to the horse. Left alone mares will rebreed shortly after foaling and stop nursing the foal before delivering the next…it is not like the human process.

[NoSuchPerson]

@paintedpennypony

then what I arrive to is owning animals period is unethical. This is not what I personally believe

Then you’re not being honest here. If, indeed, you find the idea of breeding animals to be unethical, then unless you’re a big ol’ hypocrite, you aren’t “allowed” to own any domesticated animals because they were created through human-directed breeding programs.

@paintedpennypony

Reflexively, I want to call it non-consensual but whether animals can consent is another discussion entirely

Nonconsensual? Have you never seen a mare in heat back herself up to and “wink” at a stud (or sometimes at a gelding, another mare, or a fence post)? There is nothing nonconsensual about that. (Of course, that’s not even getting into the deep level of anthropomorphizing it takes to even get to talking about consensual/non-consensual with a horse.)

@paintedpennypony

How do you rationalize the potential ethical dilemma of breeding?

I don’t have to rationalize it because I do not perceive any ethical dilemma related to the concept of consensual/nonconsensual.

[paintedpennypony]

I didn’t posit this as a belief of mine. It’s just a thought I’ve had that I thought would be an interesting discussion on here. Calling me a hypocrite is unnecessary and untrue. There’s nothing about this thread that warrants getting abrasive over a purely philosophical question

[paintedpennypony]

I also generally disagree with the notion that I’m anthropomorphizing. Many aspects of horse keeping exist to minimize discomfort, pain, or stress in our animals. So to build off that:

While I pondered consent briefly, to clarify I am not talking about consenting to the physical act of reproduction itself. That’s where instinct/biology comes in. But more so that pregnancy/birth = physically uncomfortable, potentially deadly, and knowingly putting our horses through something as physically taxing as that when they cannot themselves understand what is/will happen is… idk!

I’m clearly not anti-breeding or anti-owning animals. Again, this is just a philosophical discussion lol

[red_mares]

You can tell yourself you aren’t anthropomorphizing, but that doesn’t make it so.

Animals have 2 basic goals - survive and reproduce. That’s it.

[beowulf]

OP, I understand the thought process. Where does human exceptionalism end and ethical contemplation begin? Humans are animals; the more we learn of other animals, the more we realize that “human exceptionalism” is an outdated concept and that we can apply many attributes to animals that previously were considered only demonstrable by humans. There are many things animals have shown us they’re capable of feeling, emoting, understanding, and wanting.

Not so long ago science told us fish and bugs couldn’t feel pain and household pets didn’t have emotions.

[paintedpennypony]

Are you familiar with what anthropomorphizing means? I’m not following how being concerned about/pondering the ethics of putting our animals through undue stress or pain is anthropomorphizing. By your logic, then anything beyond ensuring the bare minimum for horses is projecting our own human concerns of pain-free existence, mental and physical enrichment, correct nutrition, etc as anthropomorphic and superfluous

[FjordBCRF]

@paintedpennypony

Are you familiar with what anthropomorphizing means?

You say it right here, projecting. Basically the same thing as anthropomorphizing.

@paintedpennypony

Pregnancy and birth are so physically uncomfortable that the thought of putting my mare through that seems unethical. Maybe I’m projecting?

[paintedpennypony]

I would cede that the fear/discomfort around pregnancy specifically is anthropomorphizing but in the broader, general sense of knowingly putting them through undue stress/pain?

[paintedpennypony]

Very well put. The knee jerk response of “stop, quit anthropomorphizing” is easier than questioning some of the ways we keep animals.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

I think there is an ethical issue here that can be addressed without even anthropomorphizing though, kind of tying back to what I was saying…

Pregnancy is a HUGE risk for any animal (human, too)! I think someone who subjects an animal to that risk better have done plenty of due diligence to ensure that the foal is healthy, which includes genetics research, breeding horses with good temperament, ensuring that there is a market/owner for said horse, a likely job for said horse, and responsibility for a healthy pregnancy and future for the foal. Ethical breeding is very expensive and labor-intensive, and good breeders really pour their hearts and souls into their breeding programs.

So that’s why backyard breeding makes me so mad. Horses have it hard enough even when they have a good start in life.

I even see some people with good intentions who make me SMH. The people who are like, “my mare so pretty but kept getting injured and she’s still young, why don’t I breed her”? When the injuries weren’t freak paddock related injuries, but breaking down at normal work levels. I know it’s not always genetics, but why take that chance?

[FjordBCRF]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

Pregnancy is a HUGE risk for any animal (human, too)! I think someone who subjects an animal to that risk better have done plenty of due diligence to ensure that the foal is healthy, which includes genetics research, breeding horses with good temperament, ensuring that there is a market/owner for said horse, a likely job for said horse, and responsibility for a healthy pregnancy and future for the foal. Ethical breeding is very expensive and labor-intensive, and good breeders really pour their hearts and souls into their breeding programs.

I was trying to articulate my thoughts, but I totally agree with Impractical Horsewoman.

[Texarkana]

@paintedpennypony

I also generally disagree with the notion that I’m anthropomorphizing. Many aspects of horse keeping exist to minimize discomfort, pain, or stress in our animals. So to build off that:

While I pondered consent briefly, to clarify I am not talking about consenting to the physical act of reproduction itself. That’s where instinct/biology comes in. But more so that pregnancy/birth = physically uncomfortable, potentially deadly, and knowingly putting our horses through something as physically taxing as that when they cannot themselves understand what is/will happen is… idk!

I’m clearly not anti-breeding or anti-owning animals. Again, this is just a philosophical discussion lol

So how is pregnancy and foaling different for the mare if a human planned the pregnancy or if she was bred in the “wild” under her own biological drive?

Either way, she’s pregnant, uncomfortable, and at risk of harm… even more so in the latter situation.

Also, I’ve lived with enough pregnant mares to know many of them understand what is happening. Some of those seasoned broodmares could teach a labor and delivery class!

[GraceLikeRain]

Leave it to COTH for someone to say “this makes me uncomfortable and I’m curious to hear what others think” and then get slammed with an avalanche of critiques around anthropomorphizing and acting like someone would have to be unhinged to have even the hint of this thought.

OP I’m with you. My animals are precious to me and Occupy a both/annd of being animals ruled by biology and Special parts of my family. The idea of breeding any of them gives me the ick and I can be grateful good breeders exist. Both things are true at once. I actually neutered a very very well bred and successful show dog because the idea of him breeding just absolutely grossed me out and I know I’d feel ethically responsible for every life created and thus grandsired and then where does it end?

I have a mare that I think most people would objectively think is worth breeding. The idea of her being inseminated and carrying does make me feel weird and I wouldn’t do it.

I’m also vegan so maybe that’s part of it. Consent or what is best for an animal outside of solely biological urges is something I think about even when things are natural/normal/customary/biological. If anything I think it makes me a more thoughtful animal owner but it’s not a common nor popular view here.