Breeding horses: ethical dilemma

[Alterration]

@f0rf31t

Animals aren’t humans. They’re more instinct-driven. Not that humans can’t be instinct-driven, humans are also instinct-driven. Difference is we still have reasoning abilities. We’re animals too, we’re just the dominant animal species on the planet, the ones with the intelligence to use tools, etc. to become the dominant species, and have essentially domesticated ourselves.

Since we’re wandering into philosophy…

I would argue that we’re not necessarily dominant, though we certainly think we are. In terms of predatory behaviors, there are many animals that could best us. In terms of masses, bugs have us outnumbered by billions. We are not the only animals that shape our environments, or build societies, or work together, nor even use tools. We may not even be alone in thinking we’re dominant - heck, I’ve never spoken to an orca but I’m fairly sure they would say that they, and not us, are the intelligent life on this planet, salmon hats not withstanding.

This by no mean means that I think that we should ascribe our intentions to another creature. We don’t grow up as horses so how could we possibly completely understand their culture (so to speak)? I don’t think we can think of it that way. We are limited by our lack of understanding of what truly makes them tick. So examining whether a horse wants to become pregnant or not, as an example, comes down to observation of behavior, but I don’t think that’s their limitation, but instead it’s ours. Since we can’t really talk to them, we have just rudimentary tools at our disposal.

And, having observed groups of humans for a long time, I question how many of us are really reasoning and how many are justifying their instincts by rationalizing them. We know that in advertising, people don’t make rational choices, no matter how much they claim to, but we’re highly emotion based, driven by base instincts that we cover up to seem “polite”. A rather crude business guy that I worked with called it “GL/GP” in that humans are truly interested in only two things, “Getting Laid” and “Getting Paid” and the latter was in service of the former.

I read the OP as a philosophical question, as an exploration of feeling. They felt uneasy, were considering that they might be projecting. Sometimes the best conversations come from those uneasy tugs on our consciences, even though we’re not quite sure where they come from.

[f0rf31t]

I don’t mind the conversation much, was more “I mean, we’re animals too when you boil it down” paired with “I think since OP didn’t specify it was philosophical, a lot of people read it as more coming from an animal rights perspective,” being why it seemed like this thread was getting combative at times.

[Alterration]

@f0rf31t

I don’t mind the conversation much, was more “I mean, we’re animals too when you boil it down” paired with “I think since OP didn’t specify it was philosophical, a lot of people read it as more coming from an animal rights perspective,” being why it seemed like this thread was getting combative at times.

I gotcha. I think BBs often get that way if they feel like they are sniffing out something that is antithetical to the group’s more commonly held beliefs. I was watching it happen in an aquarium subreddit the other day and whoo dog did the conversation take a left turn.

In-groups and out-groups are common in human herds too, just like horses

[FromTheGalaxy]

@beowulf

The best you can do is live a life that wastes little, make decisions that harm as few organisms as possible, and do your best to tend to animals in a way that minimizes pain, suffering, or prolonged unhappiness.

My feelings on the subject align a lot with beowulf’s above. We exploit/take advantage of other life every day in order to live. The question becomes where do you draw the line? What is considered necessary/ethical, and what is cruel? Our entire lives are lived in a way that is harmful to life around us; look at all the roadkill as you are driving. Does that mean you should not drive a car? It is a necessary means of transportation for most people in the US. But it does bring harm to other creatures.

Many of the things we do with horses could be considered to cause unnecessary “suffering” or at the very least unhappiness. Anything that takes them out of their “natural” habitat could be considered abusive by some. I think each person has to decide for themselves where their line is. Is competing horses ethical? What about riding in general? And of course as society evolves and we develop a better understanding and empathy toward other creatures, the base line of acceptable care continues to change. Maybe one day we will decide as a society that it is not ethical to do these things with our animals, and the majority will only keep horses as pets (or not keep them at all).

I don’t necessarily think that riding or breeding horses is cruel, but I agree that there are ways to do it that minimize suffering or discomfort that the horse may feel. We have much better technology in the way of saddle fit, veterinary care, feeding routines etc that allow us to better care for our animals. If you chose to breed your horse, it is your responsibility as the caretaker of your animal to minimize the risk of injury/pain as much as possible. Make sure your mare is physically fit and capable of carrying a foal. Choose a good match and make sure you have a plan for the resulting offspring. Make sure you are either personally prepared to handle any possible issues with birthing, or hire a professional.

[risuenaVT]

I’m not going to speak much to the ethics of breeding because I don’t have any experience and have no desire to go down that road anyway.

However, consent encompasses way more situations than just reproductive or sexual issues. In the last couple of years, I have had to consent to procedures for my elderly cats. Also to procedures and surgeries for my mother. At least with my mom, when she first got sick, she, my brother and I sat down to talk about her wishes and we were all pretty much on the same page.

I think I was more okay making the choices for my mom, because we’d had the discussions and I had a good idea of what she wanted.

I couldn’t have the conversations with my cats. The two dental surgeries? I knew those would improve things, if all went well. The abdominal biopsy and rhinoscopy? No guarantee we’d learn anything and the cat would be recovering for a couple of days with no real understanding of why they hurt. And man, every time I was sitting there waiting for a vet to call me and tell me that my cat was okay, I seconded guessed myself.

For me, at least, it is very hard to make such a difficult and potentially life altering (and even life-ending) decisions for another creature, especially when they’re an animal who doesn’t understand or are a loved family member who is past the point of understanding. It is a heavy choice.

[GraceLikeRain]

I think those are great examples of the nuance of consent and the weight of making decisions on behalf of an animal that cannot comprehend or communicate a desired outcome.

We would not have beautifully bred horses or dogs without humans being willing to make hard decisions. Personally, I have much more respect for a breeder who sees this as a weighty nuanced decision than a flippant “hormonal horses breed in the wild so who cares” mentality.

[colorfan]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

Pregnancy is a HUGE risk for any animal (human, too)! I think someone who subjects an animal to that risk better have done plenty of due diligence to ensure that the foal is healthy, which includes genetics research, breeding horses with good temperament, ensuring that there is a market/owner for said horse, a likely job for said horse, and responsibility for a healthy pregnancy and future for the foal. Ethical breeding is very expensive and labor-intensive, and good breeders really pour their hearts and souls into their breeding programs.

Yes, this! If these boxes are checked, plus a very good likelihood of a sale for the offspring then sure I have no problem with breeding a mare.
I am part of a colour fb page, so so many come to that page with some pretty mare bred to the bootiful boy, or the one I know personally, well she can’t be rode so might as well breed her and not waste the bloodlines.

[colorfan]

I don’t have a problem from the perspective you are presenting. Consent? A mare will just as readily breed with her sire/brother/son, I don’t think ethics enter into it from their viewpoint.

As their caretaker I strongly think people have a responsibility to make wiser choices. Do they actually have the money/space/time to care for and keep a prego mare and then mom and baby.
If they truly want what is best for the breed they will not breed that mare or use that stallion.

[Bogey2]

This is an excellent point…I loved my “country” vet because he never pushed procedures on me. I took my 19 yr old cat in for shots at another practice because it was closer than my large animal vets practice. The vet suggested I get a surgery…I don’t even remember what the issue was but she was 19 for crying out loud. I said why would you put an old cat through that and walked out. He also would not give me the topical flea stuff. So I went to my large animal vet and he gave me the flea stuff and said I was right to not do surgery. The cat lived another 2 yrs happily until she had a stroke. This was an indoor/outdoor cat so I would say she lived a long life!

[chestnutmarebeware]

@Alterration

salmon hats not withstanding

Thanks for making me clean the coffee off my keyboard this morning!

[tabula_rashah]

I’ve had a lot of experience with breeding and foaling, although I’ve never bred any of my own mares. I’ve worked in the NICU at New Bolton, spent several years working for a vet who bred Arabians and specialized in foaling out high risk mares as well as a couple years as a foaling attendant for a large TB farm and 7 years at a well know sporthorse breeding and training center. I chose not to breed my own mares, even though I’ve literally had people beg me to breed them to keep their bloodlines going, because I value what I have now more than future possibilities. Is that selfish of me? I don’t really think so- it’s okay for bloodlines to die out or change. Just because something is good, does it need to continue on forever?

I find the idea of animals giving consent a weird one- can they really consent to anything? Accept it - sure but consent? I love my horses, dogs and cats immensely and they are pretty much my raison d’etre but they are not people in any way and I think we do them a disservice when we treat them as such.