Breeding more Mustangs :(

[MustangSavvy]

[QUOTE=Beverley;7655235]
Mustang Savvy, what evolved on this continent was extirpated. What is here now was reintroduced from another continent. So no, not native.

As a ‘fan’ of mustangs who also recognizes that they need to be managed, I am frequently disappointed by the poor scientific quality of the references that some supporters’ arguments are based on. If all of the mustang advocates got on the same page, based on sound science, I think some real progress could be made.

High level sport horse users in dressage, eventing, jumping and such, go to Europe to get their horses. Someone ought to be developing this European niche market so they’ll come to the US to buy mustangs as a preference to buying mustangs bred in Europe.[/QUOTE]

Mustangs fully evolved here then went extinct. The horses that were reintroduced are genetically the same. Ergo a native species.

[Twisting]

I just don’t see how the thousands of mustangs in America has anything to do with breeding them in Europe. There are thousands of European horses in Europe, many of whom are sent to slaughter because they don’t make the cut, and yet it’s just fine for us to breed them in America. Why don’t we all import all of our Fjords, or Welshes, or Warmbloods from Europe? Because we want to breed our own. Is every shetland who finds itself homeless in Europe the fault of an American breeder? People who are looking to buy a Mustang bred in Europe are doing so because they can’t afford to import one but they want the legacy. Same reason why American’s buy American bred “European” horses.

You assume it’s the “touch of the wild” that gets them all starry eyed, maybe it’s the study nature, the brains, the other genetic traits of our mustangs that they like. Who knows? Whatever their reasons it is their choice.

[Beverley]

[QUOTE=MustangSavvy;7655510]
Mustangs fully evolved here then went extinct. The horses that were reintroduced are genetically the same. Ergo a native species.[/QUOTE]

Nope. A reintroduced species. Similar to the reintroduced wolves in Yellowstone, except, in the case of horses, with well over a million years of evolution in play.

And, actually, not at all relevant to the topic of discussion in this thread. Apologies to the OP.

[Beverley]

[QUOTE=Twisting;7655626]
There are thousands of European horses in Europe, many of whom are sent to slaughter because they don’t make the cut, [/QUOTE]

You make a valid point. As to this part, horses are bred for meat in Europe, it isn’t a case of sending just the rejects to the dinner table.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=Beverley;7655723]
You make a valid point. As to this part, horses are bred for meat in Europe, it isn’t a case of sending just the rejects to the dinner table.[/QUOTE]

The non-rejects do bring a better price away from the table though.

But they are not warehoused infinitely either, you are correct.

[rustbreeches]

http://fortcollins.craigslist.org/grd/4557944313.html

Hmmmm, someone could make some serious money ripping off unsuspecting Europeans. Mustangs like this pop up every day on CL

[MustangSavvy]

[QUOTE=Beverley;7655711]
Nope. A reintroduced species. Similar to the reintroduced wolves in Yellowstone, except, in the case of horses, with well over a million years of evolution in play.

And, actually, not at all relevant to the topic of discussion in this thread. Apologies to the OP.[/QUOTE]

Wolves are still a native species. Actually not. The horse FULLY evolved before crossing the land bridge and before the went extinct. They are a native species.

[thesilverspoon]

I think your idea of mustangs is a bit outdated. Check out Elisa Wallace’s eventing/dressage mustangs or the fantastic little jumper Lindsay Crofton has right now https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10453427_725030340890791_7849608176558221477_n.jpg

Yes, a lot of them are shaggy and plain and used to just plod around the trails. But just because their potential isn’t brought out does not mean it’s not there.

[thesilverspoon]

[QUOTE=Alagirl;7653996]
as good as any shaggy pony.[/QUOTE]

I think your idea of mustangs is a bit outdated. Check out Elisa Wallace’s eventing/dressage mustangs or the fantastic little jumper Lindsay Crofton has right now https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10453427_725030340890791_7849608176558221477_n.jpg

Yes, a lot of them are shaggy and plain and used to just plod around the trails. But just because their potential isn’t brought out does not mean it’s not there. Like Twisting said, you won’t be seeing one at the Olympics, but some of them are pretty darn talented with the right person to bring it out.

[thesilverspoon]

I could not agree more with Twisting. In order for someone in Europe to import a mustang, they need to board it somewhere for a full year before receiving the title (they cannot leave the country prior to that, even if an adopter in Alaska wants one and it would have to go through Canada). This also means they will have to pay someone to at least gentle the horse for them for it to safely make the trip across the ocean. You have transport costs to get it from the BLM to said trainer, and then the cost of getting it to the location it will be shipped from. Then you have the price of the import, which could be anywhere from $10-15k, especially where stallions are concerned (which the BLM will allow now, especially in younger colts). After someone goes through this at least twice, I think they’re allowed to do whatever they feel like with their horses. I’d rather see the breed be accessible over there and people that devoted to them than no one want to bother at all because of the price.
I’d have a problem with people breeding mustangs over here when there are so many for dirt cheap, but it’s a different story over there. I wouldn’t even mind mustangs here being crossed with fancier stallions, as I think they could make some great sport pony crosses.

[Beverley]

The overwhelming majority of ‘mustangs’ are already crosses of some sort, stock horse, draft, Remount, due to ranching practices of the past, where a good stallion was turned out with a band and the offspring were used by the ranchers. The palomino someone posted earlier was clearly more stock horse and/or draft influence than ‘pure’ mustang. And I’m not checking prior posts but I don’t think anyone has said that ‘all’ feral horses are of poor quality- quite the contrary.

[PeteyPie]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;7653983]
I don’t really know anything about mustangs – are they good for anything?[/QUOTE]

@Alagirl;7653996

as good as any shaggy pony.

[QUOTE=kch7238;7654139]I have two - one full Mustang and one Mustang cross. What are they good for? Between the two of them, they have competed (and done well) in dressage, combined training, western pleasure, and competitive trail. They are also good family horses, smart, with great dispositions. I wouldn’t trade either of them for the world.

Sorry if I sound defensive, it offends me when people hate on a breed. To each his own preference, and truly, I would have more if I could afford them!:D[/QUOTE]

I think it is unfair to dismiss them as just “any shaggy pony.” They do have their own characteristics which are valuable and sought after by some people. Naturally, the biggest problem which detracts from their desirability is that they are wild and untrained. But they are known for certain characteristics. Notice I am saying “characteristics”, not “qualities” because some of the following, like small size, are desired by some horse owners and unwanted by others, and some characteristics are admittedly subjective. Many of us think our horse is personable:

Very hard and sound feet. Hard like a zebra.

Sound. Good legs.

Hardiness and tendency to stay healthy.

Thriftyness – do well on less feed than some other breeds.

Intelligence – seems like owners are always impressed with this quality and have stories to tell.

Common Sense, especially regarding the conditions Nature has bred them to understand and survive. Supposedly very good trail horses.

Personable – I mean that they bond especially well with people and are eager to please and want to learn. I don’t have a mustang and never have, but this is a characteristic I continue to hear about anecdotally.

Small to medium height, generally.

Athletic and nimble. I’ve never heard anyone complaining about their clumsy mustang. Not saying there aren’t any, I just haven’t heard it.

Hair. Healthy manes and tails.

Oh, and frequently found fun feral colors. Say that five times.

[Epona142]

Here’s my guy. My friend adopted him as a weanling, and I fell in love with him a couple years later. Had to have him. Bought him and started him under saddle.

I think he could be my heart horse if I would get out and ride him more. He has been a challenge - entirely too smart for his own good. But not a mean bone in his body and I honestly think he enjoys being ridden, unlike my mare who makes an ugly face at me.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t1.0-9/577571_2168039458000_1863687683_n.jpg

[Beverley]

Cute guy, do you happen to know which band he came from?

[toady123]

The market there will be much different in the market here. “One man’s trash is another man’s treasure” as the saying goes.

I once saw a raccoon for sale at a pet store in the middle east for 1K. They also had 3 groundhogs for sale for $300 each. True story!! They were ‘exotic’ in that part of the world!!

[Epona142]

[QUOTE=Beverley;7659934]
Cute guy, do you happen to know which band he came from?[/QUOTE]

He’s quite the looker, and thinks himself a fierce herd stallion. He has chased off dogs out of my pasture before, and once a stay bull that took down my electric fencing. When my house burned down, he himself wrecked the fencing and took my mare and the young gelding I had at the time out to the neighbors (who owned horses and we sometimes rode with) where they were caught and penned up.

I was told where he came from, and had his paperwork, but it was lost in the fire. I want to say he was from Utah or Nevada, but he was found by himself and away from any of the regular herds.

Here he is when my friend brought him home. He’s come a long way!

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t1.0-9/420937_1965855123518_690475175_n.jpg

A couple more pictures. Ignore any bad posture or whatnot - I have a curved spine and am not a very good rider, to be honest. But he has been incredibly easy from the very beginning. Most of the riding pictures are from his very first rides. With the exception of the goat one - fairly recent.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfa1/t1.0-9/394092_2533312109588_983122996_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/539889_2168039778008_629826371_n.jpg

https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t1.0-9/292653_2186840048003_560435929_n.jpg

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/248341_3089777300870_254783530_n.jpg

[BEARCAT]

My local BLM holding facility charges $4/day for board once a mustang has been adopted.
That’s $1,460 for 1 year.
If you want to put said horse in training, that’s an extra $7/day.
That’s $420 if you want 2 months of training, at which point horse is usually halter trained, knows how to load in trailer, is saddle trained, has been ridden.

That’s still under $2,000.
Hard to beat that for a horse that will be of the gender, color, height and age of your choice.

[Twisting]

It’s a big stretch from halter broke and loading in a trailer to shipping a previously wild mustang overseas. Something I know from personal experience. My mare had 3 months of gentling before I shipped her to Hawaii. If I had it all to do over again I would have waited at least 6 months of consistent handling, maybe more. Every horse is different and some don’t take to it as fast as others. My mare handled and loaded in the trailer just fine, but when it came to the boat and the handling on the other side? She broke her halter, flipped over backwards, and had the Dept of Ag folks terrified of her at the processing facility here in Hawaii. All because it was too much for her sheltered brain to handle. I blame myself 100% for putting her through that, and it’s because I assumed a few months of handling would be plenty.

Add in the shipping costs of getting it to Europe and it could very well be less expensive to buy one bred in Europe. If they are breeding these horses to sell the buyer would be able to know the size, gender, and color of the horse prior to buying. In addition you would be able to ensure the horse had proper nutrition throughout gestation and growth, and was handled since birth.

Basically a plethora of horses here does not mean people breeding overseas are being irresponsible. Just as a plethora of horses overseas doesn’t mean breeding them in America is irresponsible. If that were the case anyone breeding a warmblood in America would be irresponsible, because it’s cheaper to go to Europe and import one than it is to pay all those breeding expenses and boarding and training and wait 4-5 years to get a usable horse.

[Beverley]

[QUOTE=Epona142;7660045]

I was told where he came from, and had his paperwork, but it was lost in the fire. I want to say he was from Utah or Nevada, but he was found by himself and away from any of the regular herds.[/QUOTE]

Well, in case you can spy any family resemblance, here is a herd out at Simpsons Springs in the west desert of Utah 2 years ago:

https://plus.google.com/photos/100310658467918237790/albums/5755210569805429601?authkey=COL5oOnMtP-t_AE

https://plus.google.com/photos/100310658467918237790/albums/5755210569805429601?authkey=COL5oOnMtP-t_AE

And here’s a smaller group in March of 2012, about 10 miles east of Simpson Springs:

https://plus.google.com/photos/100310658467918237790/albums/5724052051866200881?authkey=CPrXw4uy3tv3hwE

That’s all I kind find right this minute.

I would think with the freeze brand though, you could get records from BLM if you wanted to.

Edited to add, I have changed the links in hopes that they are accessible.

[Epona142]

Awesome pictures! Thanks for sharing

Yes, sending off for his information is on my very long list of “Things to eventually replace”