Breeding my Balou du Rouet mare to Casall ASK. Pros/cons? EDIT: video of mare added

[Rumorhasit93]

Hi all! I am in the preliminary stages of considering breeding my mare. I’d like to do a transfer to a surrogate mare, for many reasons.

Here is a link to my mare’s pedigree - https://www.hippomundo.com/en/pedigree/performance/490665-history-du-forgeron

I have been considering Casall for sometime now because of the many, many offspring of his I’ve seen with incredible temperament and nice flat knees to counteract my mares cart-horse genes.

My mare is incredible in terms of athleticism, kindness and willingness. Her rideability is very difficult and her general way of going is not very amateur friendly (spooky, a lot of blood).

The offspring would be for me to keep and I’d be happy with either a hunter or jumper.

What do I need to consider? I’d especially love to hear from anyone with this combination on the ground!

EDIT: here’s a video of my mare and I in the 1.10 adults. You’ll notice she doesn’t have a lead change. We have done all the vet work and I spoke to her old rider (a good event rider in Europe) who said they never taught her so, who knows. Sometimes she will get a beautiful change on course.

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[weixiao]

I personally wouldn’t look to Casall for improving hunter type amateur friendliness. He is also best suited to a modern type mare.

Holsteiner Verband says: “Considerations for breeding: Past experiences in breeding Casall show that he should be bred to tall and big-framed mares or those known to reliably pass on height and frame. In particular mares greatly influenced by Capitol blood have positive qualities making them well suited for breeding to Casall.”

It’s impossible to say if your mare is a match in type without seeing her, but I’d take that into consideration and if you don’t have your heart completely set on him, I would also consider whether there are other stallions that might fit your criteria and be more consistent improvers of temperament and rideability. As part of your research, if you haven’t already, I’d go back to the ones you have seen and liked by him and try and research their dams to see what their pedigree is and their type and production record, where possible, to help you determine whether some of the traits you are liking in them are coming from the dam instead of (or as well as), Casall.

Edited to add: I think you should also do some research on your mare’s sire, since Balou is the dam’s sire, based in the pedigree you liked. I’m not familiar with that stallion, but you might want to see what he has crossed well with. I did find a Casall x Malito de Reve cross, Carlo van’t Prinsenveld Z, and you might want to see if you can find some videos of him, just for one additional data point.

[Rumorhasit93]

Thank you! Great info.

My mare is a spitting image of Baloubet but with 4 white stockings and stands at 15.3.

I was told when we first purchased her, that the Cumano (sire side) was likely used to counterbalance the Baloubet side. I can see why and I don’t want to add another notoriously quirky and hot sire to the mix.

I do not have my heart set on Casall, so suggestions are welcome. My main concern is conformation (since my mare looks exactly like Baloubet, the large shoulder coupled with my mare being slightly downhill is something I’d prefer to not pass on).

I’ll try to get a picture of my mare standing without tack and add it here.

[weixiao]

Photos and video, if possible, will help, but based on your description and the videos I found of her sire, I would be looking for something that is balanced, flexible, has a good mouth, a good trot, and some size (not necessarily to add size, if you don’t specifically want something taller, but I’d avoid Casall, Diarado, and others that aren’t consistent in foal size and you sometimes see some that are very small). Her sire has a nice canter but looks like his balance is a bit downhill and he looks a bit stiff in the neck and mouth too. If you are looking for a jumper, I’d look for a stallion with blood, but if you’d like one that also has hunter potential and the upper level jumpers isn’t your main goal, I think that you don’t need as much blood.

Do you have any registries in mind? Zangersheide, the North American Studbook, or AES would give you a lot of options and flexibility, and are all full WBFSH members, but if you have a different one in mind you’d like to use already then you’ll want to keep that in mind when picking a stallion. I haven’t used AES but I have used Zangersheide in the past and now use the NAS so I’m happy to answer any questions you have about those two, if you have any.

Some ideas to start with though - just a range of thoughts that may or may not strike your fancy:

Diktator van de Boslandhoeve - he would be available fresh or frozen and seems to give good temperaments and type for both hunters and jumpers. He has a daughter out of a Cumano mare jumping 1.20m and eventing and he is #8 in the USEF rankings for hunter sires this year.

Ut Majeur de Brecey is also available fresh and could work.

Conthargos - crossed nicely on both Balou and Baloubet mares and gives lovely type and rideability. He died in January so I think the supply of frozen is limited and expensive, however, so you might look at some of his sons.

Chagolando PS (Chacco-Blue Conthargos) is in the US and would be worth looking at.

I think Chaccothage Blue is also an interesting young stallion option. He is by Chacco-Blue and out of a Conthargos mare and scored a 10 for willingness and a 9.5 for rideability at his stallion performance test. He does have Baloubet in the 5th generation but I think that is far enough back.

Diacontinus might check your boxes, other than the flat-kneed trot.

I haven’t seen any of his offpsring but you might check out Ulmar Mail, who is available through New Normandy. He is recommended to improve temperament and rideability and jumps and moves well. I’m not sure if he has been tested for FFS, so you would want to test your mare if he hasn’t been.

Gaspahr is available in the US now and has some offspring I really like. He seems to bring you the wonderful Tangelo temperament with a bit more of an uphill canter and size. Maybe not a flat enough trot or a round enough jump for the hunters though.

Ustinov seems to have a number of hunter kids out there.

Etoulon VDL is [EDIT: NOT a hunter, wrong info, sorry!] /now a hunter in the US, so might be interesting./

I think Solid Gold Z might actually be a good hunter stallion with the right mare, although I don’t know about whether this would be the right cross for that. He is a lovely type though.

[Rumorhasit93]

Thank you for the wealth of information! Conthargos is intriguing to me. We have a wonderful horse by him currently in our barn. Not sure the other side of our particular horse’s breeding, but he does have a LOT of knee action. Temperament and rideability is amazing.

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[weixiao]

She’s a nice mare! She reminds me of her sire, based on the videos. I don’t think she is cart-horse-y at all, but I think she lacks some freedom in her shoulder and suppleness/flexibility. Personally, I’d focus more on those features, which will improve the canter (a factor in the lead change as well), and I think you’ll end up with a trot that is good enough. I think that horses that move really flat-kneed tend to be generally less supple and flexible and for the modern sport, even the hunters, I think balance and suppleness is needed and is also a factor in getting that big, round jump.

Based on the videos, I like Conthargos or one of the two Chacco-Blue x Conthargos sons (Chagolando or Chaccothago Blue) or Ustinov for her from my list.

A bit more on Ustinov from the KWPN database: “Ustinov is also an outstanding breeding stallion: more than 80% of his offspring presented for inspectione arned the ster predicate, and more than half of tehse qualified for the keur- and elite predicate. Ustinov passes on a good trot, an excellent canter, and very good jumping talent. His breeding value is 152 with 91% reliability. Ustinov’s ability to pass on his conformation and jumping talent is also well above average, the scores for which are 111 and 113 respectively.” He won’t necessarily give you much more height, unlike Conthargos, if that is important to you though.

You may also want to see which stallions will be newly available in the US next year. The brokers like Superior Equine Sires usually start announcing that in December before the January order deadlines. I’ve heard there might be some interesting new options.

[Rumorhasit93]

@weixiao

Based on the videos, I like Conthargos or one of the two Chacco-Blue x Conthargos sons (Chagolando or Chaccothago Blue) or Ustinov for her from my list.

Thank you! Yes - tight shoulders is always a comment from body workers on her. Her unorthodox way of going certainly doesn’t help, but based on her conformation it makes sense to me.

I also just realized/remembered Explosion W is Chacco Blue and Baloubet is his dams sire (I think - I’m on the go right now).

Definitely looking more into that route based on your comments, I appreciate it!

[ThreeWishes]

Not much to add, except to say, if that’s you riding, you are very tactful and I hope you find your lovely mare the perfect stallion.

[sixpoundfarm]

@weixiao

Etoulon VDL is now a hunter in the US, so might be interesting.

Are you totally certain of this? Etoulon is one of the least hunter-y stallions that VDL has. They have sold others here that are hunters, like Cohinoor and Jardonnay, perhaps one of those is who you are thinking of?

[sixpoundfarm]

@weixiao

A bit more on Ustinov from the KWPN database: “Ustinov is also an outstanding breeding stallion: more than 80% of his offspring presented for inspectione arned the ster predicate, and more than half of tehse qualified for the keur - and elite predicate. Ustinov passes on a good trot, an excellent canter, and very good jumping talent. His breeding value is 152 with 91% reliability. Ustinov’s ability to pass on his conformation and jumping talent is also well above average, the scores for which are 111 and 113 respectively.” He won’t necessarily give you much more height, unlike Conthargos, if that is important to you though.

I have an Elite Ustinov daughter, she is a wonderful mare. She jumped to 1.40 and then did the high childrens. She moves and jumps well, and has a fantastic mind.

[weixiao]

Sorry, I was not correct with this. Someone had told me that recently when I mentioned he hadn’t shown in a number of years now, and I didn’t actually check. I’ve just looked at the VDL site and he is listed as available fresh, so that must not be true. I should have verified, thanks for the correction! (I’ve edited to mark my mistake above.)

[Rumorhasit93]

It is me! That just made my day, thank you.

Some backstory: I’ve had her for a total of 6 years now, but the first two were rough. We finally found a trainer whose WC horse was a Baloubet and several others in his string also, and I was taught how to ride “that type”.

We bought her sight unseen from Europe as an eventer, so really got lucky in many ways, but was also unprepared for how quirky she would be.

She’s never put a foot wrong and now that I’ve learned how to ride her, she’s an absolute blast and the best partner I could ask for. Hence, wanting a baby just like her (hopefully).

Edited to add: I have shortened my stirrups a couple holes since then

[ThreeWishes]

Oh I wish I had your lovely long leg. Seriously… she looks like a lovely mare who needs a super understanding pilot. You ride her with grace. Can’t wait to see who you choose!