Breeding query

[Livid-Silver]

Hello!

I am hopefully looking to breed my warmblood mare this coming season if everything falls into place as it should.
I had a breeding soundness exam done on her as she is a maiden and I didn’t want to start on the back foot. Vet said everything looked fine, she didn’t have any abnormalities or fluid/air pockets that they could see, but the only thing that is less than perfect is her vulva; a tipped vulva I think is the correct term? So this of course makes her more prone to infection due to contamination, but she seems to have escaped this thus far and the vet recommended a caslick after breeding of course. He did also mention that the tipped appearance could be due to weight rather than her conformation. I haven’t had her all that long and the guy I brought her off was struggling with drought, hence selling. Vet body scored her at a 2/5 and I’m very happy to say she’s gained a lot of condition since then. She would be nearing a 3/5 and still gaining.
So my main question is has anyone had experience with poor vulva conformation being due to poor weight?
And if not, what things can I do in the mean time to try and minimise any infection/ increase the chance of getting her in foal? I’m probably worrying too much as vet did not seem concerned, but I’ve heard that maiden mares can be tricky at the best of times!
Thanks for any responses!

[Rooty]

I had a mare with a tipped vulva, not due to her body weight, it was her conformation. Zero issues getting her in foal, but both foals she had with me got their front feet stuck up in the rectum during birth, easily fixed as I was there despite the mare’s best efforts to exclude me. And she did get develop a uterine infection post-foaling, although there are other causes for those.

[Laurierace]

Good for you for doing your homework! I personally have never heard of a tipped vulva being attributed to excess weight but I guess it is possible. If you think she is fat now, just wait until she is full term though! This is not an uncommon finding and a caslicks is a simple procedure that is very well tolerated. I have them done as a matter of course.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;8763392]
Good for you for doing your homework! I personally have never heard of a tipped vulva being attributed to excess weight but I guess it is possible. If you think she is fat now, just wait until she is full term though! This is not an uncommon finding and a caslicks is a simple procedure that is very well tolerated. I have them done as a matter of course.[/QUOTE]

Sounds opposite of fat…if was body score 2. That’s super super skinny.

Glad she is gaining. I have a mare with a tipped vulva from her conformation. I typically have to clean her out before breeding and do keep a caslick in. No issues foaling with her but she is a bit prone to placentistis so we pre-emptively treat her while pregnant. Not sure if that is related to her vulva though.

[Laurierace]

She said 3 out of 5. That is fat

[D_BaldStockings]

So here is the obligatory: I do hope she is worthy of being bred.

A caslicks now would likely be a good preventative. Vets open them before breeding and close them back up after.

Generally I have found maidens to be less problematical if appropriately aged, have regular normal heats, are in good condition, not overly nervous, etc.

Best wishes to you; breeding is a very expensive proposition at the best of times.

[D_BaldStockings]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;8763784]
She said 3 out of 5. That is fat[/QUOTE]

Yes, it would be.

But I would bet the OP either is mis-posting or misheard, since most scales are 1-9.

Corrected: English scale 0-5
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/horses/facts/98-101f3.jpg

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;8763784]
She said 3 out of 5. That is fat[/QUOTE]

Not how I was taught. 3 is still thin.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henneke_horse_body_condition_scoring_system

[Livid-Silver]

Sorry I should have said I’m in Australia! We normally use the 0-5 scale over here, 2 being moderate and 3 being good/ideal. In the 1-9 I think a 2 is roughly equivalent to a 4 and a 3 a 5?

She does have a relatively high set so I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the cause. I was just curious, especially after the vet saying it might improve with weight gain.
Its good to know that a caslick is usually sufficient for these mares, but I’ll keep possible foaling problems and placentistis. She doesn’t have on in currently, so is it okay to wait or better done ASAP? She’s going to an experienced stud in September, right at the start of breeding season, so she can settle and the vet can do anything extra that needs doing. She’ll go back for foaling so there are experienced people on hand if the need arises.

D_BaldStockings no I totally understand The decision to breed this mare was made very carefully and I got a lot of outside opinions. I’d really like a foal from her before she gets too old and the opportunity has presented itself for this season. I know breeding is expensive; from what I’ve worked out so far its going to cost me about 2.5k to get her in foal if everything works out perfectly the first time around, so I’m preparing for more.

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8764039]
Not how I was taught. 3 is still thin.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henneke_horse_body_condition_scoring_system[/QUOTE]
You referenced a 9 point scale, she referenced a 5 point scale.

[NancyM]

If you are doing AI, the caslicks does not need to be opened for breeding. If doing live cover, it does need to be opened and re stitched afterwards. During the breeding (presuming hand breeding not pasture breeding), a temporary caslicks can be done using super glue (“Caution, bonds skin”). Bonding skin is exactly how it is used to put in a temporary caslicks. Leave the lower edge open so that the mare can pee! Clean the skin fully and apply Vaseline where you don’t want the glue to stick the edges of the vulva together. Apply glue, and hold the edges closed for a couple minutes. The glue dries fast. Don’t glue your fingers to the mare’s parts. This glue will hold for a few days or a week. Once the mare is confirmed in foal, the surgical caslicks can be redone. But using the temporary caslicks can help a badly sloped mare avoid contamination during the breeding process, while waiting to find out if you need to re breed or not.

[D_BaldStockings]

If she is an older maiden, there are protocols that you might want to look into before breeding season to assess her uterine health; but I’m not up on them.

Also if you are doing a frozen semen insemination you will need much tighter timeframe and accurate ovulation timing, etc.

If she needs the caslick to avoid contamination, waiting isn’t a benefit.

Best wishes for a good foal.

[Mozart]

I had this issue this year; mare has had 2 previous foals with no issue and no Caslicks but now, with a bit of age on her and a slight weight loss due to being moved to a new herd, it was tipped enough to cause a problem.

There was no signs of any problem but post breeding: whammo, major fluid, lots of discharge. She likely had something simmering that was provoked by the breeding. Culture revealed a yeast infection. She was flushed, treated and appeared to be clean but did not catch at the second breeding. We opted to leave it be for this year and give her uterus a chance to settle.

She will stay Caslicked until next spring and we will see what we have. If vet recommends a Caslicks based on her conformation you might as well get it done before a problem develops

[Livid-Silver]

NancyM I am looking to do AI. The stallion I’ve picked doesn’t do live cover, so am going with chilled instead. At the time of the breeding soundness exam I’d hadn’t decided on a stallion so was unsure as to AI or live. I’ve never heard of that type of temporary caslick though, sounds interesting! I’m assuming a vet needs to do it?

D_BaldStockings she is rising 10, so not super old, but I believe old for a maiden. I have done a bit of brief reading on protocals for older maidens, I think its the Oxytocin ones- assists with clearing of fluid post-breeding. Pre-breeding season I was going to get her cultured again so any infection can be found asap and treated, but I’ll have a look into other things I should be getting done. The vet didn’t find any abnormalitises with her cervix or anything like, but she also wasn’t in season, which I know can change things. Definitely not using frozen even though the stallion has got very good semen and has reportedly worked very well with problem mares and maiden mares in the past. I’m leaning towards using the chilled stuff, but could do fresh, just means sending her to the stallions stud rather than my stud of choice. The vet I want to use has worked with this particular stallion and owner before though, so it shouldn’t be hard to organise either way. The only reason she didn’t get the caslick in that day was the vet wasn’t really concerned about contamination. He was saying that he didn’t see any sign of contamination in her inner workings, so wanted to try minimize the times she was cut and sewn up, so I opted to leave it as is. He obviously said try to keep her clean if I noticed her getting really messy behind. However, after reading and talking to everyone on here, I might give him a ring and see if he could come out and do it and I’ll just get her opened up again if need be. I was wondering if you would need to culture again to make sure your not locking any nasties in with the caslick?

Mozart I’m sorry to hear you didn’t have any luck with your mare, but at least you can try again next season. I was going to get another culture done before breeding in September just case something has come up in the mean time and also why I’m going to send her up early. Is it possible for an infection to only show up on a culture post-breeding? Like I mentioned to D_BaldStockings I didn’t insist on having it done then as the vet thought she would be fine without it for the month between the exam and breeding season. I’m going to give him another call and try to get some things clarified I will have her caslicked again after foaling and she’ll stay that way unless I ever get the chance to breed again.

Thanks to everyone for all the responses! Its been invaluable!

[NancyM]

[QUOTE=Livid-Silver;8765868]
NancyM I am looking to do AI. The stallion I’ve picked doesn’t do live cover, so am going with chilled instead. At the time of the breeding soundness exam I’d hadn’t decided on a stallion so was unsure as to AI or live. I’ve never heard of that type of temporary caslick though, sounds interesting! I’m assuming a vet needs to do it?
Thanks to everyone for all the responses! Its been invaluable![/QUOTE]

No, a vet does not need to do this, anyone can do it quite easily. A vet clued me into it though, recommended it to me. I thought it was a clever trick to use, and have done it with mares who need a caslicks once confirmed in foal. It helps.

[Mozart]

[QUOTE=Livid-Silver;8765868]

Mozart I’m sorry to hear you didn’t have any luck with your mare, but at least you can try again next season. I was going to get another culture done before breeding in September just case something has come up in the mean time and also why I’m going to send her up early. Is it possible for an infection to only show up on a culture post-breeding? [/QUOTE]

I honestly don’t know. My mare had a foal in 2014, no indication of any fluid or issue, we did not try again until this year. Vet #1 checked and saw no issues, bred her and 5 days post breeding she was streaming discharge. Flushed her for 3 consecutive days and declared her clean. I made alternate plans and took her elsewhere, that vet scoped and her uterus was full of fluid again. This time she was cultured and it turned out to be yeast. I was told that she may have had a low level infection that then really flared up with the breeding.

Would Vet #1 have known she had low level yeast had he cultured before breeding? Don’t know, but I am going to ask Vet #2 at next opportunity. She certainly will be cultured before we try again in the spring. There was nothing noticeable about her vulva before we bred this spring and I see this mare up close at least 1x per day. Not checking her vulva every day but I think I would have noticed discharge.

For my own peace of mind I am just not going to add up this season’s vet bills

[Livid-Silver]

I might have a look into that Nancy, thanks for telling me about it!

I hadn’t looked about something like a yeast infection not showing up until after breeding, but it obviously can as in your case Mozart. I have read that maiden mares can still contract a yeast infection, and its usually one of the more common ones, despite never being bred previously. So I’ll definitely be keeping that in mind!

I tried ringing my vet only to find he’s gone away for a few weeks, which is slightly inconvenient lol By the time he gets back it would only be another two weeks before she goes to the stud, so I’m unsure whether to wait until she goes to stud, wait until my normal vet gets back or find another. I’m leaning towards getting another to come out and dome culture and such before stitching her up.
However, I was also reading about an alternative to a carsick which actually aims to improve the perennial conformation and return correct orientation to the vulva; I think its called a pouret/perineal body transaction? I haven’t found a heap of information on it other than how its done, but it seems to be used more in mare who have a pronounced ‘self’ and incorrect angle where my mare has no self but incorrect angulation. Has anyone had any experience with this type of procedure? I’m wondering if it might be better than a carsick as then she might not actually need to be stitched, but haven’t heard about this procedure before.

[D_BaldStockings]

Whoa, Nellie!

So far your vet has found nothing amiss with your mare. No contamination, no nothing.

Surgical intervention on the scale of Pouret is NOT something you should be contemplating.

What is the history of your mare’s family as far as getting in foal and holding pregnancies? If there are few issues you simply need to follow standard checks, perhaps do indicated treatment protocals and put semen in the mare at the right time of year and the right time of her heat.

Investigating is good.

Jumping to invasive procedures is NOT!

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!

[Livid-Silver]

[QUOTE=D_BaldStockings;8769873]
Whoa, Nellie!

So far your vet has found nothing amiss with your mare. No contamination, no nothing.

Surgical intervention on the scale of Pouret is NOT something you should be contemplating.

What is the history of your mare’s family as far as getting in foal and holding pregnancies? If there are few issues you simply need to follow standard checks, perhaps do indicated treatment protocals and put semen in the mare at the right time of year and the right time of her heat.

Investigating is good.

Jumping to invasive procedures is NOT!

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it![/QUOTE]

Yep okay you confirmed my suspicions that that is NOT a good idea lol I had never heard of a Pouret before let alone seen one over here, so I had no clue what they were about other than what I had read. The website Id read about it on made it sound like an alternative, not the next step up. Sorry if it sounded like I was going to do it, I was mainly just looking for more info on it. So thank you for telling me!
As far as I know, there weren’t any significant issues with breeding my mares dam, so I’m probably being a tad paranoid.

Thank you guys so much for all your help answering my silly questions I really do appreciate it and am feeling a lot more informed! I guess now it’s just a matter of waiting until breeding season