Breeding this MILDLY navicular mare...? (Read at least the first paragraph before posting please)

[TooMuchRebel]

Going to start this off by saying that I am 95% sure this case of navicular was most certainly caused by long term improper hoof care. Before I got her, for about 4-6 years, she was on an almost non-existent farrier schedule. She had long toes and low/underrun heels. She’s typically very heavy on the forehand and also has a muscle injury on her hindquarters that makes it a little harder for her to use herself, so I’m sure this contributed. She was in training as a barrel horse for a while (she’s an amazing athlete, with an amazing mind). She was on a very good schedule with me with a good farrier but because she was being ridden so often and she was sound we never risked cutting off TOO much toe to bring her heel up and shoes weren’t an option at the time. She was diagnosed with very mild navicular recently, about a year after recovering from a broken splint and losing an eye. Neither of her parents have been diagnosed with it nor have any suspicion of it. We are on a strict farrier schedule to correct her angles through barefoot trims and I’m working on getting wedges for her. She seems to be sound and happy now.

SO, to get to my point, would you still breed her if you found the right stallion? Before all the accidents she was an amazing athletic horse. She had speed, could turn on a dime, and was ready and willing to do absolutely anything. Super sensitive as well, but not in a dangerous or annoying way. Never mareish at all with an amazing disposition. No crazy conformation flaws either that I’ve seen/been told about. I feel like with the right stallion she would have an AMAZING performance baby! However this new navicular thing is causing me to second guess breeding even more than before.

I promise I’m not some backyard breeder that is breeding just because, or because “my mare needs a baby” type answers. If she’s not breed worthy, why waste my time and money lol. I have (and still am) putting extreme amounts of thought into this and whether or not it’s worthwhile. I honestly may never even let her see a stallion, but I am still going through the thought process. She’s younger, 13, and may be put into a semi-retirement situation because of her previous injuries. Currently, she seems sound and happy after our first trim to try and “fix” this navicular problem, so I don’t see how a pregnancy at this stage of the disease would hurt??

What is everyone’s thoughts on this situation? The good, bad and ugly. I can upload conformation pics if anyone desires. I can’t promise they’re perfect though. TIA!

[NancyM]

“Navicular” is a catch all phrase, and can be due to and dependent on a number of things, farrier work and conformation being two of those things. If you feel that her conformation is not flawed in this respect, to use her as a broodmare would be an calculated risk that you could accept, IMO. Make sure you choose a stallion who also has good feet. I am presuming she is QH? The conformation of many QH feet predisposes them to navicular issues, things that get diagnosed as “navicular”, anyway. Whether they are or are not navicular is always open for discussion. As you probably know, xrays of “navicular” issues vary greatly between cases, and are not reliable to diagnose the problem. If you like everything else about the mare, she’d be worth a try as a broodmare IMO.

Breeding horses is always a situation full of risks, some of which you know about in advance, and some that you don’t. There are never any guarantees of success, all horses have flaws and issues. You try for perfection in breeding stock, then get a foal with a leg put on backwards LOL.

[TooMuchRebel]

@NancyM

“Navicular” is a catch all phrase, and can be due to and dependent on a number of things, farrier work and conformation being two of those things. If you feel that her conformation is not flawed in this respect, to use her as a broodmare would be an calculated risk that you could accept, IMO. Make sure you choose a stallion who also has good feet. I am presuming she is QH? The conformation of many QH feet predisposes them to navicular issues, things that get diagnosed as “navicular”, anyway. Whether they are or are not navicular is always open for discussion. As you probably know, xrays of “navicular” issues vary greatly between cases, and are not reliable to diagnose the problem. If you like everything else about the mare, she’d be worth a try as a broodmare IMO.

Breeding horses is always a situation full of risks, some of which you know about in advance, and some that you don’t. There are never any guarantees of success, all horses have flaws and issues. You try for perfection in breeding stock, then get a foal with a leg put on backwards LOL.

I don’t think it’s conformation, but I could be wrong. It could have been a combination of poor farrier schedules and the way she’s built however I mostly suspect farrier. When I got X-Rays to check for navicular we didn’t do any angle shots from the side, only what we needed to indeed confirm navicular. I plan to get side shots within the next correction trim or two to make sure we’re on the right track! I guess i will make more decisions then.

She is full QH, and I have read that they’re typically predisposed to it. I am definitely aware of risks which is why I’m so hesitant about even thinking about it. But she is a lovely mare and as I said before super athletic AND a great mind…I think her baby could go places even if she can’t anymore.

Thank you!!

[Daventry]

@TooMuchRebel

But she is a lovely mare and as I said before super athletic AND a great mind…I think her baby could go places even if she can’t anymore.

If the foal is born predisposed to navicular, then it is possible it won’t be doing much in the future either. This needs to be considered.

[NancyM]

@TooMuchRebel

I don’t think it’s conformation, but I could be wrong. It could have been a combination of poor farrier schedules and the way she’s built however I mostly suspect farrier. When I got X-Rays to check for navicular we didn’t do any angle shots from the side, only what we needed to indeed confirm navicular. I plan to get side shots within the next correction trim or two to make sure we’re on the right track! I guess i will make more decisions then.

She is full QH, and I have read that they’re typically predisposed to it. I am definitely aware of risks which is why I’m so hesitant about even thinking about it. But she is a lovely mare and as I said before super athletic AND a great mind…I think her baby could go places even if she can’t anymore.

Thank you!!

The xrays don’t give reliable information about whether it is or isn’t a problem with the navicular bone. Studies have shown that there is little correlation between foot lameness and navicular xrays. Navicular bones with large lollipops may or may not show issues with lameness. Horses with foot lameness in feet may or may not show lollipops.

Breeding QHs comes with the risk of having bad feet, boxy, narrow and small and unsound. Because some QH breeders throughout the decades have done this to QHs, unfortunately, and it is going to “pop up” occasionally, whether or not the animals you use as breeding stock show the problem themselves. If your mare has nice big open feet, well shaped, and good growth, good walls, good frog pressure, nice cup, but has experienced sore feet in her career (possibly due to poor farriery or poor care), it may or may not have been due to the navicular bone. There are other options that can be mistaken for navicular issues, and since navicular problems are so tricky to diagnose, there is always a question as to the true nature of the soreness. We like to believe that veterinarians and xrays can tell us everything, but in fact, neither can, and no one can predict the future when it comes to horses.

Selection of breeding stock is always a personal decision. One can never tell in advance whether it is going to work out well, or be a good idea, only “after the fact” will tell you whether you were right or not. A huge number of risks are involved, always. If, as a horseman, YOU feel that the risks that you CAN identify are WORTH it, based on the strengths YOU see in the stock, you go ahead and give it a try. I am a TB breeder, for race and show. I make my decisions on this, it’s a free country. I don’t have “breed inspectors” telling me what they want me to do or not do, it is MY decision, right or wrong. Many years ago, there was an Italian TB race breeder, Tesio. He was known as “The Crazy Italian” by the race breeders at the time, because of the criteria he used to select breeding stock to produce racehorses. He bred both Nearco and Ribot, along with a large number of other hugely successful racehorses, he is still one of the most successful TB breeders of all time. Because of the decisions he made, based on what HE felt was important in his breeding stock. Turned the breeding of TB racehorses on it’s ear. No one can tell you that you are “wrong” before you have been proven wrong. Because you may proven be right.

I have had a TB family for four generations. It’s not fancy, just local breeding. We fell into leasing the mare, four generations ago, nearly 40 years ago. Bred her twice, kept one filly. The filly we kept was ruled off at the starting gate for flipping EVERY time she went there. But she was AWESOME to ride, a powerhouse on the track. Never raced. I bred her (it was either put her down, or breed her), choosing local race stallions based on their calm and easy disposition (her flaw). She was a great mother, and produced our best racehorses. The other mares I had had way more pedigree than she did, and more performance in their own careers. I would have never chosen to breed this mare if I had not ridden her, knew her intimately. I just worked with her granddaughter yesterday. Just as powerful, athletic and impressive as the rest of this family has been.

If you are looking for a barrel horse (and I know nothing about barrel horses so take this with a grain of salt), I would look at a TB stallion rather than QH for your mare. Appendix. Outcross to something with nice feet (not all TBs will give you this, but some will). Sprint bred TB. Good luck!

[JB]

A conformation picture might help. Butt-high and/or functionally downhill horses, both very common in the disciplines and breed you’re talking about, would automatically eliminate her from breeding IMHO. Both of those faults increase stress on the front end and increase the risk of navicular issues.

You’re right that navicular issues are common in the QH world, and a lot of that is conformation. It gets compounded by purposeful trimming for boxy upright feet (even apart from that conformation fault). But also, a lot of it may, IMHO, be caused by how some of the disciplines train the horses, which is front-heavy downhill movement, which further pounds the front legs and feet.