Breeding woes

[goodmorning]

What am I missing here?

Mare bred twice - perfect timing. AId once each cycle, second cycle mare ovulated a couple hours post breeding. No fluid but kept on Oxytocin anyways. each time. Fresh shipped semen that looked great (& did so 4 days post shipment). First cycle left mare at clinic a bit longer to check for fluid, none. Second time brought her home earlier in some vain attempt to reduce stress (wasn’t stressed at the clinic but who knows) but I kept her on oxytocin every 6hrs.

Last year has 3+ E. coli & treated. Caslicked. This year clean culture & cytology & biopsy prior to breeding. Short cycled both times but has been having regular 21 day heat cycles. 2nd breeding attempt we did not use HCG or delorelin, first attempt yes.

3 foals on the ground - conceived 2 on the first try, one foal on the 2nd attempt. Infection to blame per prior owners. Live cover - racehorses. 11yo & healthy & shiny & happy. Last foal is now 2yo.

So what am I missing besides money & a black dot from this lovely mare?

Do I try a new stallion?

Where do I go from here?

[NancyM]

Where do you go from here? Live cover.

[Texarkana]

No suggestions, but I can commiserate. I’ve had three years of trying with a fertile mare who has produced many lovely foals prior to me, but zero black dots since.

My next move will be a new mare. Hopefully you aren’t at that point yet.

Good luck, whatever you do! It sure is frustrating.

[goodmorning]

Have you done anything like a DMSO lavage?

Have you tried more than one stallion?

This is a sad place to be

[MysticOakRanch]

Sometimes you just need to wait until next year. Did you do a subsequent C and C to make sure she is still clean? I swear, some years, it just isn’t meant to be. Sometimes it pays to just “take a year off”.

And yes, sometimes live cover is the answer, but not always. Sometimes a different extender makes a difference. Sometimes mare just don’t get pregnant, then Spring of the next year comes, and :encouragement:

[Texarkana]

[QUOTE=goodmorning;8807198]
Have you done anything like a DMSO lavage?

Have you tried more than one stallion?

This is a sad place to be[/QUOTE]

Yes. She’s been bred to three stallions with me, all live cover. The last attempt of this year was perfectly timed and we pulled out all the stops. Still nothing. :sigh: But my mare is older. I took a calculated risk purchasing her at her age (19 and open when I got her, with a stellar produce record and still reproductively sound on exam). In this instance, the risk did not pay off for me.

I fully encourage you to try all of the above if you have not done so. Especially another stallion if you’ve just tried with one.

[epowers]

Took me four tries to get my mare in foal this year. She is 11 and has had 5 foals, all from frozen semen. Very well timed frozen semen breedings, Oxytocin protocol every time. First two times with stallion 1 she came up with two different infections, and was treated. Third cycle with stallion 2 no black dot for no apparent reason, she stayed clean. The next cycle with stallion 3 I added Regumate to the game and dosed her from 5 days post OV through 45 days, then weaned her off. 60 day check she is still in foal.

[SnicklefritzG]

Just a theoretical question here (as I’m not in this situation myself)

What do breeders do if they order fresh cooled or frozen semen and their mare doesn’t take? Are they out most of what they spent on the semen and they have to order again and pay another fee?

[Dutchmare433]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8807317]
Just a theoretical question here (as I’m not in this situation myself)

What do breeders do if they order fresh cooled or frozen semen and their mare doesn’t take? Are they out most of what they spent on the semen and they have to order again and pay another fee?[/QUOTE]

I think it depends a lot on the contract, and sometimes with an older mare, the stallion owner won’t do a LFG, or they’ll modify it such that you give the older mare a chance, then switch to a younger mare (approved by SO). But with the LFG, you pay the stud fee, which includes the first collection fee. If the mare doesn’t take, you don’t have to pay the entire stud fee again, just the collection fee–around a few hundred dollars, again depending on who does the collection.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8807317]
Just a theoretical question here (as I’m not in this situation myself)

What do breeders do if they order fresh cooled or frozen semen and their mare doesn’t take? Are they out most of what they spent on the semen and they have to order again and pay another fee?[/QUOTE]

As noted it all depends on the contract. With fresh chilled… Not all contracts include first collection - more often, you pay a “collection fee” for each collection (as well as shipping costs), the combined collection and shipping seems to range from $100 to $500 EACH time. Some stallion owners limit the number of collections. Some give you a LFG for the current breeding season, some limit it to two breeding seasons, some allow you to keep trying until you give up.

Some charge a new “booking fee” each year, or allow you to switch the breeding to another mare, sometimes with a “booking fee” (which can range from $0 to $1,000).

Meanwhile, the mare owner is not only incurring the collection and shipping fees, but the vet fees for each try. It isn’t uncommon for the mare owner to just give up - and there is no “money back” guarantee, EVEN if the stallion’s semen is not good or there is some issue with collection. I ran into that issue twice in my breeding days. Both times were poor semen. Now days, with active forums, I would have probably let everyone know about those stallions, but back then, different times. As a result, I think reputable stallion owners are more willing to step up when the semen isn’t good, or the stallion is injured and can’t collect.

With frozen semen, most often you pay by the straws, no LFG, so if your mare doesn’t take, you are just out the money. If you want to try again, you buy again.

Breeding can require a deep pocket:(

[rubles]

Reading this thread makes me wonder what’s happening.
It used to be choose the stallion, swab the mare, live cover, leave at stallion owner’s barn to determine pregnancy and take her home. Two mares, two different stallions two healthy foals. Stallion fee paid when foals stood and nursed.
Recently though all the modern methods, fresh semen paid for up front, three breedings–0 foals. Live foal guarantee both times. A costly business for sure.
So we gave up and bought two fabulous weanlings.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=rubles;8808311]
Reading this thread makes me wonder what’s happening.
It used to be choose the stallion, swab the mare, live cover, leave at stallion owner’s barn to determine pregnancy and take her home. Two mares, two different stallions two healthy foals. Stallion fee paid when foals stood and nursed.
Recently though all the modern methods, fresh semen paid for up front, three breedings–0 foals. Live foal guarantee both times. A costly business for sure.
So we gave up and bought two fabulous weanlings.[/QUOTE]

But shipped semen has given us the ability to breed to a stallion on the other side of the country, OR even the other side of the pond. Quality of horses has gone up significantly, and I think this is a BIG part of it.

I agree, sometimes it is cheaper to just buy a youngster then breed one!

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8808357]
But shipped semen has given us the ability to breed to a stallion on the other side of the country, OR even the other side of the pond. Quality of horses has gone up significantly, and I think this is a BIG part of it.

I agree, sometimes it is cheaper to just buy a youngster then breed one![/QUOTE]

True.
We would never have the quality here now it it wasn’t for frozen. A difference might be that if you import a mare or paid a lot for a broodmare, then you try harder to get a foal as opposed to just calling it a day with her. In the end we might be breeding mares that should be culled (from breeding) so we don’t have fertility issues.

[MysticOakRanch]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8808499]
True.
We would never have the quality here now it it wasn’t for frozen. A difference might be that if you import a mare or paid a lot for a broodmare, then you try harder to get a foal as opposed to just calling it a day with her. In the end we might be breeding mares that should be culled (from breeding) so we don’t have fertility issues.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I totally agree! It is a “two edged sword” - I do think we are getting better horses, but also agree, i suspect we are perpetuating breeding issues.

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=stoicfish;8808499]

We would never have the quality here now it it wasn’t for frozen. A difference might be that if you import a mare or paid a lot for a broodmare, then you try harder to get a foal as opposed to just calling it a day with her. In the end we might be breeding mares that should be culled (from breeding) so we don’t have fertility issues.[/QUOTE]

@MysticOakRanch;8808746

Oh, I totally agree! It is a “two edged sword” - I do think we are getting better horses, but also agree, i suspect we are perpetuating breeding issues.

This is because we breed for performance, conformation and movement, not fertility. Horses that can jump higher, run faster, trot better. Fertility is not even in the equation. This is why the cattle industry is so much further ahead than the equine industry for AI and frozen semen. Bulls that do not produce good quality semen are culled and sent for meat. Cows that are not getting pregnant are culled and sent for meat. But we don’t consider those factors when breeding horses. As a result, we have created future generations that are producing sub-par semen and mares with infertility problems…and then we add to the problem by bending over backwards to get them in foal.

[RyTimMick]

[QUOTE=goodmorning;8807134]
No fluid but kept on Oxytocin anyways. each time. (wasn’t stressed at the clinic but who knows) but I kept her on oxytocin every 6hrs.[/QUOTE]

Ok, this is weird to me. Oxytocin every 6 hours? You can give oxytocin after 6 hours(well actually less then) but you would do this once maybe twice if fluid was present. After that you would stop. then on day five or six you would put the mare on Regumate until the mare is shown to be pregnant and until the progesterone levels are checked. Oxytocin given every six hours would for sure guarantee no baby.

Tim

[Daventry]

[QUOTE=RyTimMick;8809130]
Ok, this is weird to me. Oxytocin every 6 hours? You can give oxytocin after 6 hours(well actually less then) but you would do this once maybe twice if fluid was present. After that you would stop. then on day five or six you would put the mare on Regumate until the mare is shown to be pregnant and until the progesterone levels are checked. Oxytocin given every six hours would for sure guarantee no baby.

Tim[/QUOTE]

This is totally INCORRECT advise. :no: The oxytocin protocol is widely used. The first shot is given 4 hours post breeding and then continued every six hours and up to 3 1/2 days post-ovulation (for the problem mares). While oxytocin will not “make” a mare pregnant, it greatly helps reduce any fluid or uterine clearance issues and can help ensure the conceptus does what it’s supposed to do in a healthy and happy uterus. Just because you can’t see fluid on ultrasound doesn’t mean there isn’t a problem with some mares. The oxytocin protocol is religiously used for frozen semen breeding by many breeders and repro specialists. It should be noted that a longer lasting option is available in the U.S. which only requires a once a day shot rather than every six hours. www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/oxytocin.htm In the case of older mares, it could certainly make a difference and is extremely inexpensive…so worth the extra effort.

As Jos Mottershead states in the article: “Mares that are likely to benefit from the use of an oxytocin protocol such as one outlined above include those mares with known delayed uterine clearance problems, mares with uterine fluid presence pre- and/or post-breeding, older mares that may have uterine lymphatic issues, mares post-breeding with frozen semen, and - in our experience - some other “problem mares” that have defied pregnancy establishment for no apparent reason. It should be noted that we will use oxytocin prophylactically in mares that we consider may present breeding problems even in the absence of identified problems, and have seen good - if inexplicable - success. The treatment is cheap, easy and carries minimal risks.”

As well, there is no reason a mare “has” be on Regumate post-breeding unless there is a diagnosed problem. It is an old myth that every mare should automatically be put on Regumate after breeding. http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/Regumate.shtml That being said, on the EquineRepro group on Facebook, there have been quite a few people discussing the use of Regumate this year - vets saying hormone levels are off for more mares than normal. I haven’t found that same problem with our mares this year, but others have. After 20+ years of breeding, I have yet to put any of our broodmares on Regumate.

[ThirdCharm]

At 19 I would try regumate.

Jennifer

[Onetrickpuppy]

OP, thanks for this thread. We own a 5 y/o maiden mare that has been AI’d 5 times. Twice last year, 3 times this year. Our vet has checked hormones and reproductive health, everything seems fine. Now the vet wants to do a culture and cytology. Sigh.
I just want my mare to settle.

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=Onetrickpuppy;8809417]
OP, thanks for this thread. We own a 5 y/o maiden mare that has been AI’d 5 times. Twice last year, 3 times this year. Our vet has checked hormones and reproductive health, everything seems fine. Now the vet wants to do a culture and cytology. Sigh.
I just want my mare to settle.[/QUOTE]

A culture with cytology should have been step one, not step six. Where are you guys getting these repro vets?