Breedism and Warmbloods

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Thoroughbred in Color;8198905]
Well, sort of. The thing is, most warmblood registries have been around a long time and the resulting horses registered are the result of generations of selective breeding to get the desired traits. Yes, the books are open, but you will find that they are only open to certain breeds (TB and Arab mostly) and then only by approval/testing. It isn’t just as simple as hot blood + cold blood = warmblood.[/QUOTE]

Amen. This is worth repeating and understanding.

Sure, a WB is the product of draft horses crossed with TBs once upon a time…. and lots of well-regulated selective breeding since. That modern horse doesn’t resemble her “F1 generation” draft x TB.

The author of that article, while she may have a horse she adores and a trainer who one on an appy-something one day at the Hampton Classic in 1999 because a TB had a bad day, really doesn’t get it just what went into making the modern WB.

It’s fine to bitch about elitism if you want. But you can make a strong case if you don’t first understand what the “elites” did to get that way.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=Hobbs;8198998]
Oh, so now they are superior to other Curly Coated Retrievers because they were born and trained in Europe? Purebred and trained in Europe - I do believe you are a dog elitist :lol:

Very lovely dog by the way.[/QUOTE]

No they are not superior to other Curly Coated Retrievers… They are Curly Coated Retrievers and it doesn’t matter where they are born… Because they are bred according to a Standard… But I think it shows how versatile and smart the breed is, if they can compete on different continents
And Thank You!! I love her to pieces, although I sometimes wish she were dumb… Having a smart dog is tough…

And now back to the horses… There are some very good posts about the topic

[Hobbs]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;8198991]
So - your mutt retrieves in the field and curly coated retrievers don’t ?
https://youtu.be/Wj18sjSDN18

https://youtu.be/0pGjUrZUPbc[/QUOTE]

Show me where I said Curly Coated Retrivers can’t retrieve in the field? Of course they can, but they are not a preferred hunting breed…and yes, my Labrador Retriever is an excellent hunting dog.

I don’t own a Labradoodle (or a mutt as you refer to them) but I know of a few; they’re smart and make great family dogs even with little formal obedience training. I do have a Lab/Shepherd cross and he’s a great dog; crossbreds have much to offer and I hate to see them disparaged simply because they are not purebred.

[Hobbs]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8199005]

And Thank You!! I love her to pieces, although I sometimes wish she were dumb… Having a smart dog is tough…[/QUOTE]

I’m happy to say that my boys are smart, obedient and eager to please, not tough at all.

[Sunflower]

What is a warmblood, but a cross between a draft and a TB or hotter horse? The term derives from a cross between “cold” and “hot” to make “warm.” Some registries operate different controls on who or what is recognized within their registry. Some warmblood types have developed lines of specialisms, such that one line is for dressage, some for show jumping, etc. In other words, these have developed into sport horse lines.

Of course the growth of mechanized farming meant that the heavier non-sport horse type of warmblood became increasingly obsolete in the 1960’s, and state studs and breeders had to rethink the use and market of these breeds. Hence, the growth of sport horse breeding.

Some warmbloods might have a 7/8 cross of TB/draft, but it is unlikely the registries require that as a fractional mix.

Generically speaking, a warmblood is a draft/hotter breed cross. A horse of a particular registry ( Oldenburg, Hanovarian, etc) has to meet the requirements of that particular registry.

The irony for me from the article is that the author who rides a draft-TB mix feels that people look down on her horse, the self-same people who are riding a draft-TB mix! In other words, the breedism results from people somehow forgetting that their own warmblood is only that because somewhere in its lineage it is a draft cross.

[Bombproof]

Here’s the thing about elitism, though…if horse A performs the task at hand better than horse B, then by definition he is a “better” horse in those circumstances. Simply being from bloodline X rather than bloodline Y doesn’t tell the story of which horse is “better.” If you go into the task on your $30,000 Hanoverian and someone of equal skill performs the task more successfully on his $250 BLM horse of uncertain parentage, then you just wasted $29,750 and nobody wants to admit that. If your sport requires a big, scopy, strong horse with a level head, does it really matter whether you got that horse by buying a recognized Warmblood breed or by crossing an OTTB to a Percheron?

You don’t predictably get a “better” horse for the purpose with a Warmblood than with a TBxdraft. What you DO get is a higher degree of certainty that the next generation will follow suit. That’s where the many generations of selective breeding come in. The traits you see in this horse have been pretty well “firmed up” and you can say with confidence that the next generation will probably be much like this one. In other words, if the two horses are geldings, bloodlines don’t mean squat and performance is everything.

Breedism is silly. It’s kind of like not living in the real world. Go ride your horse and if he’s “better,” it will be obvious. If he’s not “better,” that will be obvious as well and the guy on the mongrel horse will be happier than you.

[enjoytheride]

Come on guys, I’m more interested in hearing the labradoodle person insult the curly coated retriever person then have a rational discussion about breedism.

[ladyj79]

Or “rational”, as the case may be.

[Caol_Ila]

It’s always the people who have draft-crosses who worry more about this than, well, everyone else. And for the record, I have had an F1 Shire-TBX for the past 16 years, who is an excellent horse in many, many respects. But if I had been serious about riding upper level dressage (I wasn’t and I’m not) when I bought her, I probably would have bought something else.

As others have said, the modern warmblood is the result of selective breeding for hundreds of years, not throwing drafts and light horses together in the hope that it doesn’t end in a horribly fugly horse with a draft front end and TB back end. The warmblood breeders have carefully stacked the odds in their favor of producing athletic horses that can do certain jobs, whereas with an F1 draft cross, it is always something of a crap shoot. Sometimes you get something that’s nice and pretty athletic; sometimes, you don’t. Sometimes you hit the jackpot; there are even draft crosses at the FEI levels, but you have to be pretty lucky to find one which can withstand that kind of work. Sometimes, you get a horse more earthbound in its movement than an alligator.

However, draft-crosses often make great ammy horses; in my experience, they are forgiving, easily trainable, have amenable brains, and they make amazing all-rounders. A good one can turn its hoof to anything and will do so happily. My horse doesn’t have the movement of some of the warmbloods I know, but she’s an easier ‘person’ to get on with and is more than athletic enough for the job I want. And sound at 22, so definitely happy about that! I don’t see the need to feel defensive, like ‘all warmbloods are draft-crosses anyway, so there;’ different sorts of horses, different talents, different limitations.

[skykingismybaby1]

I ride a cross bred horse. Both parents were well bred (meaning bred for generations with a purpose in mind and significant performance on each side).

He ended up with the best parts of each breed, his full sister however ended up with the worst bits of each breed.

First generation cross breds are a crap shoot.

Oh and I call him a warmer bred. Cross Dutch WB with Arab mare.

[rothmpp]

I think the draft cross thing boils down to this:

Draft cross owners, either F1 or F2 sometimes don’t understand that a Verband registry is not just throwing together hot and cold and getting warm. Warmblood breeders sometimes refuse to acknowledge that enough generations back there is going to be some heavier and heaven forbid perhaps some draft blood in their selectively bred stock.

As a rider/owner of a F2 FEI showing draft cross, it is very frustrating to hear the bias. He’s kicked the butt of 90% of the European purpose bred Warmbloods out there. Yet he’s automatically worth 50% less 'cause he doesn’t have the brand on his butt. My comment to all the gelding owners out there is often “sure, don’t buy a yearling draft cross and expect a upper level sport horse, but once they are showing at that level, your Dutch gelding is no more valuable than my Clyde/TB/Dutch gelding. They are both totally useless if they get hurt/retire.”

[Scaramouch]

[QUOTE=Sunflower;8199063]
What is a warmblood, but a cross between a draft and a TB or hotter horse? The term derives from a cross between “cold” and “hot” to make “warm.” Some registries operate different controls on who or what is recognized within their registry. Some warmblood types have developed lines of specialisms, such that one line is for dressage, some for show jumping, etc. In other words, these have developed into sport horse lines.

Of course the growth of mechanized farming meant that the heavier non-sport horse type of warmblood became increasingly obsolete in the 1960’s, and state studs and breeders had to rethink the use and market of these breeds. Hence, the growth of sport horse breeding.

Some warmbloods might have a 7/8 cross of TB/draft, but it is unlikely the registries require that as a fractional mix.

Generically speaking, a warmblood is a draft/hotter breed cross. A horse of a particular registry ( Oldenburg, Hanovarian, etc) has to meet the requirements of that particular registry. [/QUOTE]

Have you ever looked at the pedigree of a branded warmblood in depth? They’re not the “7/8” cross you would get if someone bred a full draft 30 years ago to a TB and kept breeding the offspring to TBs.

For example: The Trakehner eventing stallion Tatendrang.

Sure, he has a couple of TBs in the third generation, and if you look further back you’ll find more. But if you go waaaayyyy back, say to the late 19th century, you’ll find horses that look like this rather than this.

And, more importantly, in the warmblood pedigrees, you’ll find long lines of horses who have actually demonstrated their abilities in dressage and jumping. Frequently you’ll find horses who have competed on the Olympic levels.

How is it “breedist” to suggest that the descendants of Olympic/top level competitors are likely to outperform the offspring of a (typically) failed racehorse and a heavy draft?

Does that mean people shouldn’t ride draft crosses, if that’s what they prefer? Of course not. And it’s asinine to worry for two seconds about the breed of horse someone else is riding. But is it rational to expect a Belgian/TB to be a world-beater before it has actually walked the walk?

As rational as anyone looking down on Covert Rights for being 1/4 Clydesdale… Of course it’s also important to mention that his TB dam was an Advanced horse and his Clyde/TB sire went Prelim, so he still has more proven bloodlines than 99% of draft crosses out there…

[Beck]

As long as the draft chosen to provide its genes to the cross has ‘riding type’ conformation, you have a better chance of getting a riding-type horse (assuming that is the goal). Problem is, the most common draft-cross seen out there (at the lowest levels) has a lot of draft traits that are more suited to pulling than to riding. This will limit its potential as a ridden animal. If I see a horse out there that clearly is not built for competitive riding/jumping I will not be inclined to try to train or use it for that. Many of the draft crosses I see (admittedly at a very low, grassroots level) are like that.

And please do not forget that another facet of conformation is that it will affect the animal’s soundness under certain uses: sure, you might have a nice big draftX who has the power to jump the moon - but how fair is it to ask him to do that, regularly, if it is likely to hurt him?

It all comes down to the conformation because conformation determines/controls/limits ability. Ask any draft breeder: a “good” draft does NOT have riding conformation - nor should they.

[Megaladon]

[QUOTE=Scaramouch;8199162]
Have you ever looked at the pedigree of a branded warmblood in depth? They’re not the “7/8” cross you would get if someone bred a full draft 30 years ago to a TB and kept breeding the offspring to TBs.

For example: The Trakehner eventing stallion Tatendrang.

Sure, he has a couple of TBs in the third generation, and if you look further back you’ll find more. But if you go waaaayyyy back, say to the late 19th century, you’ll find horses that look like this rather than this.[/QUOTE]

What about the “unknowns” in the pedigree however? I suppose we cannot know what they looked like, but one could possibly assume that they were the heavier of the mated pair considering the other is marked as TB.

[Equibrit]

The Jockey Club in England was founded in 1750 to record the breeding of horses for racing.
The Sport horse registry was founded in England in 1884 to register horses for sport, using thoroughbred sires.

Since that time the breeding and selection process has led to a much improved type of horse for sport. To suggest that a draft cross compares to years of selective breeding for purpose is just stupid, and probably damaging to your treasured mutt.

I think most draft cross owners at some point feel they need to prove something. Their horse is just the same as a warmblood, or as good as an expensive horse, or they have to rebutt slights they feel are aimed at them. Personally - I don’t really give a damn, other than when they ask a horse to do something he is not physically suited to do. They tend to break down.

[SnicklefritzG]

I thought the title of the article didn’t match the overall tone. The only thing the title did for me was to get me to click on the link to see what kind of discussion or debate I’d find.

I didn’t think the article really talked about “breedism” or even tried to define it. The author simply talks about what she likes riding and that she doesn’t care who she is competing against, she’s going to go for it anyway. That’s great, but I think the title is misleading.

People who truly are “comfortable in their own skin” even “quite comfortable” shouldn’t need to go around stating that. People who feel comfortable with themselves typically go out and get @#$% done and don’t preach. They let their results speak for themselves.

A nice horse is a nice horse, regardless of breed though. Does anyone even know what Snowman was? Look what he did after coming off a slaughter truck.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;8198969]

All dogs are trainable. All you have to do is train them for a task that suits their talents.[/QUOTE]

I suppose so, in a technical sense. But doesn’t that mean one simply keeps digging for a dog’s talent if he flunks out of training test after training test?

[Equibrit]

[QUOTE=mvp;8199240]
I suppose so, in a technical sense. But doesn’t that mean one simply keeps digging for a dog’s talent if he flunks out of training test after training test?[/QUOTE]

His talent may be as a faithful, loving companion, doesn’t mean you neglect to train him. Dogs are bred for purpose; retrievers to retrieve, guard dogs to guard. Breeding whacky crosses makes for much more unpredictable results.

[SillyHorse]

[QUOTE=Sunflower;8199063]
What is a warmblood, but a cross between a draft and a TB or hotter horse? The term derives from a cross between “cold” and “hot” to make “warm.” Some registries operate different controls on who or what is recognized within their registry. Some warmblood types have developed lines of specialisms, such that one line is for dressage, some for show jumping, etc. In other words, these have developed into sport horse lines.

Of course the growth of mechanized farming meant that the heavier non-sport horse type of warmblood became increasingly obsolete in the 1960’s, and state studs and breeders had to rethink the use and market of these breeds. Hence, the growth of sport horse breeding.

Some warmbloods might have a 7/8 cross of TB/draft, but it is unlikely the registries require that as a fractional mix.

Generically speaking, a warmblood is a draft/hotter breed cross. A horse of a particular registry ( Oldenburg, Hanovarian, etc) has to meet the requirements of that particular registry.

The irony for me from the article is that the author who rides a draft-TB mix feels that people look down on her horse, the self-same people who are riding a draft-TB mix! In other words, the breedism results from people somehow forgetting that their own warmblood is only that because somewhere in its lineage it is a draft cross.[/QUOTE]
You really should educate yourself about warmbloods, and stop with the "cross between a draft and a TB or hotter horse? The term derives from a cross between “cold” and “hot” to make “warm” " because you are showing your ignorance about warmblood registries and their histories.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Sunflower;8199063]

Generically speaking, a warmblood is a draft/hotter breed cross. A horse of a particular registry ( Oldenburg, Hanovarian, etc) has to meet the requirements of that particular registry.

The irony for me from the article is that the author who rides a draft-TB mix feels that people look down on her horse, the self-same people who are riding a draft-TB mix! In other words, the breedism results from people somehow forgetting that their own warmblood is only that because somewhere in its lineage it is a draft cross.[/QUOTE]

It seems to me that you hold the same understanding of selective breeding as does the author of the article. It is incorrect. Or rather, it omits the “sieve” of selection that each generation of WB horses (by breed or individuals allowed into the registry) must pass through.

To clarify again, using those (helpful) Mendelian terms, and also purpose-bred types like draft horses and TBs:

You have two options for creating a “warmblood.”

1. You “mix paint” which means in each generation, you cross a draft (bred to a conformation and a function) with a TB (bred to a different combination and a different purpose). I suppose you could call this a WB. And I suppose that very, very early on, the founding horse or generation of the modern WB was this cross. It’s an “F1” or “first filial” generation, in those Mendelian terms. Every time you cross a TB and a draft horse in this discussion, you’d create an F1 WB.

That’s not at all what WB breeders (or even registries) are doing/have done.

2. You breed a WB to a WB, or any two horses accepted into that registry. It can get there by blood, by inspection and/or by inspection and performance record. Those “already in the studbook” horses are the product of selective breeding and that means several things.

a. Breeders did not produce F1 generations of draft x TBs over and over. (Though they did outcross with TBs more and more in recent history.) That means they chose from horses whose conformation and purposeful ideal was shifting from either the draft breeder’s goal or the TB breeder’s goal.

b. The crucial thing is the selection or sieve that is happening in all of those generations! And it happens, too, for the out-crossed, non-WB horses people would like to use to outcross with a WB. All must meet criteria that relate to the registry’s long-term breeding goal and conformational/performance ideal.

c. That preferred conformation and purpose was held relatively stable across time and (I think) across those European breeders who submitted their horses to WB registries. I think it’s fair to say that outside of the breeds in the US bred for racing or show (I’m thinking mainly of TBs and AQHA horses where the breed association runs the showing so as to serve the breeders), selective breeding is not as well-organized and controlled as it is among the European registries. If every breeder pursues her ideal for a short time, or in isolation, she’s not contributing much to the kind of larger project that the state-run WB registries have undertaken.

To be clear: three key component of selective breeding-- is time, consistency and a relatively stable ideal or goal. It is what makes a, ssay, F35 WB really different from that F1 the OP mentioned.