Breedism and Warmbloods

[Sunflower]

Let’s End Breedism In The Show Ring

I found this to be a very interesting read. It makes me wonder, however, if the people who look down on a draft TB x understand what a warmblood is. It is a draft TB x in origin. Cold blood plus hot blood equals warmblood-- that is where the name comes from! So even though the horse that is the subject of the article might not come from a warmblood breed registry, given its lineage as a draft TB cross, it IS a warmblood!

And if people are prejudiced against drafts or draft crosses, I wonder if they really understand the breeding and athleticism of some of the breeds.

Warmbloods were created originally to be a sort of all round utility horse, one that could pull loads, look stylish pulling a carriage, and be used as a riding horse. While a sport horse focus has evolved for warmbloods, their origins are anything but elite. That is why breed snobbery is a bit misplaced-- especially given some of the open books that warmblood registries maintain-- where a good quality horse of another “breed” can be registered.

Breedism, to me, is based on a lack of understanding of where warmbloods originate and what they are ( perhaps blingy price tags distract from this information) and demonstrates a lack of knowledge about horses. Warmblood registries recognize quality individuals, and that is what understanding horses would entail-- spotting a quality individual horse, not blind snobbery based on inaccurate perceptions.

[Thoroughbred_in_Colo]

Well, sort of. The thing is, most warmblood registries have been around a long time and the resulting horses registered are the result of generations of selective breeding to get the desired traits. Yes, the books are open, but you will find that they are only open to certain breeds (TB and Arab mostly) and then only by approval/testing. It isn’t just as simple as hot blood + cold blood = warmblood.

I did like the article though, as I have traditionally ridden “non-typical” horses (paint, appy, Welsh, etc.) myself. There will always be people who look down on others because they don’t have whatever happens to be in fashion at the time, but performance is more important to me than breed anyway. I ride the horse I like that can do the job I want it to do. Sometimes I don’t fit in, but I don’t mind. There will always be fashions in the horse world, 30 years ago a warmblood would’ve been the odd horse out in a sea of thoroughbreds in the hunter ring.

[Manni01]

This is a very well written article but it is more like a story and not a research on breeds… If a horse does a great job, it does a great job, no matter what type of horse it is, but to interpret more into it doesn’t really make sense.

I have the problem that I own and also used to breed a dog breed which is actually the oldest Retrieverbreed. The Curly Coated Retriever. I guess nobody here ever heard about this breed. BUT there is the Labradoodle which is not a breed but a very popular mix. So wherever I go with my dogs, people ask me whether they are Labradoodles… I know everybody is going to kill me for this opinion , but for me this exactly the same thing.

I simply love traditions and the values generations of breeders tried to get into a breed. And therefor for me a mix of whatever and how cute and great ever is not the same…

[Alagirl]

Breedism:

When horses with nearly identical bloodlines but different brands fetch vastly different prices.

A draftxTB is not a warmblood.
it is a cross of vastly different types of horses.
Some individuals maybe athletic, but the vast majority are just not as big as a full draft, but much heavier than a TB.

The classic sport type from the UK is 7/8th TB to 1/8th draft.
It is a type.

Breedism is people turning up their noses at TBs, because they consider them to be track trash, when a generation (historical speaking, 35 years) ago they were the more affordable choice of athletic horse.

Breeds evolve.
Back in the 80s, my uncle quipped about Hanover demanding 5 generations in the stud book (for stallion contenders), when that far back the stock was not a sport base but a heavy warmblood (NOT draft) working horse, with a head as big as a house!

In the US, there is no home grown ‘Warmblood’ breed, unlike Europe, where they grew for loner than the US exists, matched to the conditions in their home country.
There is no long standing breeding tradition. Nothing that passes from generation to generation.
There are no farms that have been operating since organized breeding began.

It takes a few generations of horses and organized breeding to reach a 7/8th cross.
It takes several generations (again 35 years, historical speaking) to form a stable program.

(when I was a kid, I was upset when one of the most prestigious TB breeding farms was handed over to a foundation. Now I know that without that, it would have closed, it’s colors stricken from the books, like so many have before that depended on one person to survive)

[RPM]

Well, there is a difference between a draft cross, even a draft-TB cross, and a warmblood.

Warmbloods were developed, in part, from European heavy harness, or coach, breeds, e.g., Holsteiner, Hanoverian, Gelderlander, Westphalian. Not from draft horse breeds like the Percheron, Shire, Clydesdale, Belgian, and Noriker.

When the world became mechanized and heavy harness horses were no longer needed to pull carriages, those breeds could have died out. But even 2 and maybe more centuries ago, they were being crossed with the Thoroughbred to create a lighter, more refined breed, probably one that could be versatile enough to be ridden as well as driven. Think of the Cleveland Bay in Britain. That breed has been mixed with the Thoroughbred for at least about 2 centuries.

Think of Black Beauty. He and Ginger were not of the regular “tall carriage horse breed” but had more “racing” blood. Black Beauty’s grandsire raced at Newmarket, so presumably was a Thoroughbred. And Black Beauty’s own brother hunted.

To cross a Thoroughbred on a draft breed is not the same as to cross a TB on a heavy harness/coach horse breed. So yes, there is a difference between a draft cross and a warmblood.

The Irish Sport Horse is another variety, being developed by crossing TB stallions onto Irish Draught mares. Again, the Irish Draught is not the same sort of “draft” or “draught” breed as the Shire, Clydesdale, Suffolk Punch, Percheron, Belgian, etc.

For a warmblood aficionado to look down on a draft-cross person is about as logical as for a Mercedes owner to look down on the owner of a Cadillac or Rolls Royce.

[Hobbs]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8198908]
This is a very well written article but it is more like a story and not a research on breeds… If a horse does a great job, it does a great job, no matter what type of horse it is, but to interpret more into it doesn’t really make sense.

I have the problem that I own and also used to breed a dog breed which is actually the oldest Retrieverbreed. The Curly Coated Retriever. I guess nobody here ever heard about this breed. BUT there is the Labradoodle which is not a breed but a very popular mix. So wherever I go with my dogs, people ask me whether they are Labradoodles… I know everybody is going to kill me for this opinion , but for me this exactly the same thing.

I simply love traditions and the values generations of breeders tried to get into a breed. And therefor for me a mix of whatever and how cute and great ever is not the same…[/QUOTE]

Are you suggesting that you find it insulting when your dog is referred to as a Labradoodle? Some people appreciate dogs for their intelligence and trainability and I have little doubt that most Labradoodles, a cross between a Poodle (breed intelligence ranking #2) and a Labrador Retriever (breed intelligence ranking #7) is generally a more intelligent, trainable dog than your Curly Coated Retriever ( breed intelligence ranking #41). So maybe you should take it as a compliment.

http://thehydrantblog.com/2011/05/03/the-intelligence-of-dogs-the-list/

[Laurierace]

[QUOTE=Hobbs;8198925]
Are you suggesting that you find it insulting when your dog is referred to as a Labradoodle? Some people appreciate dogs for their intelligence and trainability and I have little doubt that most Labradoodles, a cross between a Poodle (breed intelligence ranking #2) and a Labrador Retriever (breed intelligence ranking #7) is generally a more intelligent, trainable dog than your Curly Coated Retriever ( breed intelligence ranking #41). So maybe you should take it as a compliment.

http://thehydrantblog.com/2011/05/03/the-intelligence-of-dogs-the-list/[/QUOTE]

I shouldn’t attempt to speak for her but I assume she meant that she didn’t like her purebred dog being mistaken for a designer mutt.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=RPM;8198921]

For a warmblood aficionado to look down on a draft-cross person is about as logical as for a Mercedes owner to look down on the owner of a Cadillac or Rolls Royce.[/QUOTE]

I think you got this backward.

however, a draft X TB will likely not bother the jump judges at a CHIO anytime soon.
Does not make them bad horses, they have their job.

However, throwing the ‘Labradoodle’ in the mix is rather unfair. While the majority are probably mutts bred by opportunists, they are probably the only ‘oodle’ “breed” with a legit purpose: hypo-allergenic service dog.

the other oodles and poo dogs are in line with Warlanders and Georgia Grandes…I used tho think Aztecas belonged into the mix, but I was informed they were indeed an older attempt to combine similar breeds for a purpose (QH and Iberian horses, both stock working breeds)

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=Hobbs;8198925]
Are you suggesting that you find it insulting when your dog is referred to as a Labradoodle? Some people appreciate dogs for their intelligence and trainability and I have little doubt that most Labradoodles, a cross between a Poodle (breed intelligence ranking #2) and a Labrador Retriever (breed intelligence ranking #7) is generally a more intelligent, trainable dog than your Curly Coated Retriever ( breed intelligence ranking #41). So maybe you should take it as a compliment.

http://thehydrantblog.com/2011/05/03/the-intelligence-of-dogs-the-list/[/QUOTE]

Do you know Curly Coated Retriever ??? Have you ever met one?? Have you really read the article which you cited??? The ranking is not really saying anything because the personality of the dog breed influences the result… So what???
And yes, I am insulted when my breed which is very rare and carried by a small group of extremely dedicated breeders is confused with a mix bred mainly for money… And as far as I know is the creator of this mix regretting that he created it…

[Hobbs]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;8198935]
I shouldn’t attempt to speak for her but I assume she meant that she didn’t like her purebred dog being mistaken for a designer mutt.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and my question is why? The suggestion is that she perceives the the Curly Coated Retriever as superior to the Labradoodle “mutt” and my point is that in terms of breed intelligence and trainability it is most definitely not.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8198940]
Do you know Curly Coated Retriever ??? Have you ever met one?? Have you really read the article which you cited??? The ranking is not really saying anything because the personality of the dog breed influences the result… So what???
And yes, I am insulted when my breed which is very rare and carried by a small group of extremely dedicated breeders is confused with a mix bred mainly for money… And as far as I know is the creator of this mix regretting that he created it…[/QUOTE]

he should have picked a better name.

[Manni01]

This video expresses very well the problem…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93Hs34VBd1k#t=52

[Hobbs]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8198940]
Do you know Curly Coated Retriever ??? Have you ever met one?? Have you really read the article which you cited??? The ranking is not really saying anything because the personality of the dog breed influences the result… So what???
And yes, I am insulted when my breed which is very rare and carried by a small group of extremely dedicated breeders is confused with a mix bred mainly for money… And as far as I know is the creator of this mix regretting that he created it…[/QUOTE]

It’s a ranking of “Working/Obedience Intelligence” which IS breed dependent. It is based on a survey of over 200 professional dog obedience judges. While there may be some variation in individuals within a breed, it is a fact that some breeds are brighter and more trainable than others.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=Hobbs;8198953]
It’s a ranking of “Working/Obedience Intelligence” which is breed dependent. It is based on a survey of over 200 professional dog obedience judges. While there may be some variation within individuals within a breed, it is a fact that some breeds are are brighter and more trainable than others.[/QUOTE]

As I said, I recommend to read what you cite first I hope it is ok if I cite it then…
" The drawback of this rating scale, by the author’s own admission, is that it is heavily weighted towards obedience related behavioural traits (e.g. working or guard dogs), rather than understanding or creativity (e.g. hunting dogs).

As a result, some breeds may appear lower on the list due to their stubborn or independent nature, but this nature does not make them unintelligent or impossible to train." this is from the study you cited, and I guess you have no idea about Curly Coated Retriever…

[Equibrit]

I would love to see a labradoodle retrieving out in the field/woods/water !

All dogs are trainable. All you have to do is train them for a task that suits their talents.

[Hobbs]

[QUOTE=Manni01;8198957]
As I said, I recommend to read what you cite first I hope it is ok if I cite it then…
" The drawback of this rating scale, by the author’s own admission, is that it is heavily weighted towards obedience related behavioural traits (e.g. working or guard dogs), rather than understanding or creativity (e.g. hunting dogs).

As a result, some breeds may appear lower on the list due to their stubborn or independent nature, but this nature does not make them unintelligent or impossible to train." this is from the study you cited, and I guess you have no idea about Curly Coated Retriever…[/QUOTE]

Trainability intelligence is one aspect of intelligence, and as far as I am concerned it is the most important. Other aspects of intelligence such as instinctive and adaptive intelligence are not easily measured.

Actually, a neighbour down the road has a Curly Coated Retriever and it is one of the dumbest dogs I’ve ever met (not surprised at all it ranks a 41 in trainability)…that’s why I take issue with your denigrating the Labradoodle because it isn’t a “purebred”. The Labradoodle is a smart crossbred and I would take one over a Curly Coated Retriever any day because I value trainability in my dogs. Different strokes for different folks - but one isn’t better merely because it is a purebred.

[Hobbs]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;8198969]
I would love to see a labradoodle out in the field/woods/water ![/QUOTE]

Actually my Labrador Retriever does very well in the field/ woods and water…and I don’t know anyone who uses a Curly Coated Retriever as a hunting dog, they are not considered a top hunting breed. Oh, and most people purchasing Labradoodles are NOT looking for a hunting dog, but a trainable, friendly, family pet. That is the niche they fill.

[Manni01]

[QUOTE=Hobbs;8198976]
Tra![](nability intelligence is one aspect of intelligence, and as far as I am concerned it is the most important. Other aspects of intelligence such as instinctive and adaptive intelligence are not easily measured.

Actually, a neighbour down the road has a Curly Coated Retriever and it is one of the dumbest dogs I’ve ever met…that’s why I take issue with your denigrating the Labradoodle because it isn’t a “purebred”. The Labradoodle is a smart smart crossbred and I would take one over a Curly Coated Retriever any day because I value trainability in my dogs.[/QUOTE]
Well I guess experience against experience… the Labradoodles I met so far seemed pretty stupid to me… just running around with wagging tails and not doing anything… Whereas my Curlies are the smartest dogs ever They were born in Europe and trained European Style and they also passed US Huntests with US rules I think thats pretty smart

one of my dumb Curlies…[IMG]http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad152/Gretaundlucky/My%20Curlies/PAP_8283.jpg)

[IMG]http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad152/Gretaundlucky/My%20Curlies/PAP_8978.jpg)

[IMG]http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad152/Gretaundlucky/My%20Curlies/PAP_8981.jpg)

[IMG]http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad152/Gretaundlucky/My%20Curlies/PAP_8278.jpg)

[Equibrit]

[QUOTE=Hobbs;8198979]
Actually my Labrador Retriever does very well in the field/ woods and water…and I don’t know anyone who uses a Curly Coated Retriever as a hunting dog, they are not considered a top hunting breed. [/QUOTE]
Curly coated retrievers don’t ? You’re smoking dope.
https://youtu.be/Wj18sjSDN18

https://youtu.be/0pGjUrZUPbc

[Hobbs]

[QUOTE=![](anni01;8198982]
Well I guess experience against experience… the Labradoodles I met so far seemed pretty stupid to me… just running around with wagging tails and not doing anything… Whereas my Curlies are the smartest dogs ever They were born in Europe and trained European Style and they also passed US Huntests with US rules I think thats pretty smart

one of my dumb Curlies…[IMG]http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad152/Gretaundlucky/My%20Curlies/PAP_8283.jpg)

[IMG]http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad152/Gretaundlucky/My%20Curlies/PAP_8978.jpg)[/QUOTE]

Oh, so now they are superior to other Curly Coated Retrievers because they were born and trained in Europe? Purebred and trained in Europe - I do believe you are a dog elitist :lol:

Very lovely dog by the way.