Breedism and Warmbloods

[Nootka]

Breedism and Warmbloods - Chronicle Forums

The link above has a very interesting conversation that I think fits here better than anywhere. There is a lot of “Hot + Cold= Warmblood” going on. We know that it is sooo much more complicated than this but … WOW

http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/lets-end-breedism-show-ring

I found this to be a very interesting read. It makes me wonder, however, if the people who look down on a draft TB x understand what a warmblood is. It is a draft TB x in origin. Cold blood plus hot blood equals warmblood-- that is where the name comes from! So even though the horse that is the subject of the article might not come from a warmblood breed registry, given its lineage as a draft TB cross, it IS a warmblood!

And if people are prejudiced against drafts or draft crosses, I wonder if they really understand the breeding and athleticism of some of the breeds.

Warmbloods were created originally to be a sort of all round utility horse, one that could pull loads, look stylish pulling a carriage, and be used as a riding horse. While a sport horse focus has evolved for warmbloods, their origins are anything but elite. That is why breed snobbery is a bit misplaced-- especially given some of the open books that warmblood registries maintain-- where a good quality horse of another “breed” can be registered.

Breedism, to me, is based on a lack of understanding of where warmbloods originate and what they are ( perhaps blingy price tags distract from this information) and demonstrates a lack of knowledge about horses. Warmblood registries recognize quality individuals, and that is what understanding horses would entail-- spotting a quality individual horse, not blind snobbery based on inaccurate perceptions.

[Pennywell_Bay]

Omg. Seriously need to go stock up on my classy boxed wine. This is going to turn into a WB vs wb vs Tbred vs Holstein vs where blood was added and X breed sucks. Sadly, the point of the original thread is lost.

[FatCatFarm]

Yup. The debate will follow that hot blood to cold blood equals instant warmblood, whereby all the serious warmblood breeders of all and various denominations, will become instantly and forthrightly offended.

microwaves popcorn

[fannie_mae]

The co-owner of the barn that trained Rocky says, “That is a horse I would take into war.” And he is right.

nothing wrong with that.
exactly what they were initially invented for.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;8202617]
Sadly, the point of the original thread is lost.[/QUOTE]

I disagree. I think the thread is a perfect example of the point of the article. We have argued for 9 pages over whether or not an American bred warm blood (of the traditional definition) is anything like or nearly as good as a purpose bred European Warmblood generations of selective breeding later.

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;8202661]
I disagree. I think the thread is a perfect example of the point of the article. We have argued for 9 pages over whether or not an American bred warm blood (of the traditional definition) is anything like or nearly as good as a purpose bred European Warmblood generations of selective breeding later.[/QUOTE]

I stand corrected. I meant the article. which to ME seemed annoying, but I posted enough on the other thread, I’ll let the breeders take to this definition and explain it to laymen such as myself.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;8202661]
I disagree. I think the thread is a perfect example of the point of the article. We have argued for 9 pages over whether or not an American bred warm blood (of the traditional definition) is anything like or nearly as good as a purpose bred European Warmblood generations of selective breeding later.[/QUOTE]

I think the premise of your comment is wrong. The warmblood of today originate from the evolution of a heavier type of horse, notably by adding blood on top. The notion of warmblood being cold blood over hort blood is just not exact. The horses from which the modern warmblood originate are of a heavier type carriage or work horse, but it has nothing to do with the modern belgian draft horse or the Clydsedale. If you look at the older work horses from germany, France or the Netherland, you will find a lighter work horse closer to the modern Irish Draught. It has been shown that modern warmblood horse and modern draft breeds evolved independently, from to very different foundations.

[I]"It once was thought that the Warmblood was a cross between cold-blooded horses, such as the Draft breeds, and hot-blooded horses, like the Arabian or Thoroughbred. In fact, the Warmblood boasts a unique heritage independent of these influences, and is itself one of the oldest surviving horse breeds.

The modern Warmblood horse is a descendant of Equus Caballus Mosbachensis, which is a subspecies of Equus Caballus. Equus Caballus is essentially the ancestor of the modern, domesticated horse."[/I]

Source: http://www.horsejournals.com/charismatic-canadian-warmblood-part-1

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8202756]
The horses from which the modern warmblood originate are of a heavier type carriage or work horse, but it has nothing to do with the modern belgian draft horse or the Clydsedale. If you look at the older work horses from germany, France or the Netherland, you will find a lighter work horse closer to the modern Irish Draught.[/QUOTE]

I agree. We have lost many strains of mid-range weight harness horses that were not as heavy as what we today think of as draught horses. They didn’t cross the Shires with Arabians to get the Thoroughbred.

[roseymare]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;8202661]
I disagree. I think the thread is a perfect example of the point of the article. We have argued for 9 pages over whether or not an American bred warm blood (of the traditional definition) is anything like or nearly as good as a purpose bred European Warmblood generations of selective breeding later.[/QUOTE]

I thought the argument was whether the term warmblood could be used in the historical/educational/evolutionary concept as term to describe a cross between a draft horse (cold blood) and an Arabian or Thoroughbred (hot blood). People seemed to be saying that was a completely made up definition.
I can’t understand why anyone would think an f1 Arabian and say Shire cross would by phenotypically anywhere close to one of the European Studs horses that are commonly grouped under the breed term of Warmblood.
Was anyone arguing that besides the original blog poster? And she was muddling that argument with other thoughts.

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8202756]
I think the premise of your comment is wrong. The warmblood of today originate from the evolution of a heavier type of horse, notably by adding blood on top. The notion of warmblood being cold blood over hort blood is just not exact. The horses from which the modern warmblood originate are of a heavier type carriage or work horse, but it has nothing to do with the modern belgian draft horse or the Clydsedale. If you look at the older work horses from germany, France or the Netherland, you will find a lighter work horse closer to the modern Irish Draught. It has been shown that modern warmblood horse and modern draft breeds evolved independently, from to very different foundations.

[I]"It once was thought that the Warmblood was a cross between cold-blooded horses, such as the Draft breeds, and hot-blooded horses, like the Arabian or Thoroughbred. In fact, the Warmblood boasts a unique heritage independent of these influences, and is itself one of the oldest surviving horse breeds.

The modern Warmblood horse is a descendant of Equus Caballus Mosbachensis, which is a subspecies of Equus Caballus. Equus Caballus is essentially the ancestor of the modern, domesticated horse."[/I]

Source: http://www.horsejournals.com/charismatic-canadian-warmblood-part-1[/QUOTE]

This. In spades.

[D_BaldStockings]

Supposition that the European WB descends from the E. Caballus type LABELLED Mosbachensis (because specimens are found near Mosbach, Germany -surprise)
is just that: supposition. Genetic studies in the 1990’s were not what they are today.

the original article is here
http://www.equinestudies.org/mammalian_species_2008/mammalian_species_equus_caballus_pdf1.pdf

I don’t really have time to go into it, but the gigantic draft horses of 300 years ago to the current time were developed from careful selection of available stock: if one looks at the ‘knight’s horses’ of the 14th-16th centuries they are not this large, heavy or used at slow paces (drafts work at walk and trot). And those were the largest horses of their day; the peasant ‘draft’ horses were small, cobby types like Fjord horses.

Horses, being mobile were rarely confined to specific regions: one of the major results of domestication was to try to conquer your neighbors.
There were the massive invasions into Europe by the Mongols, the Scythians, the north Africans, the Romans.
Not to mention the reverse invasions called the Crusades, and lets not forget the Many lesser wars like the 100 years war, the Napoleonic wars, repeated overthrows of various Austro-Hungarian-German-Polish kingdoms… Horses boing one of the major prizes of war, especially since the confiscation of them effectively shut down communication, slowed speed of goods traded and reduced return raiding of the conquered people.
And then there were the economic migrations of people -and their livestock, a single example being the Flemish weavers invited to England in the 14th century and the resultant change in the Fell and Dales equine stock.

In short the modern European Warmblood Sporthorse is not ‘pure’ but one of the wonders of selective breeding, just as much as the modern Thoroughbred race horse or the modern Belgian draft horse. While the breeders have not been at it for as long a time period, they have achieved much in a short space of time.

And yes, ‘warmblood’ lower case inidicates nothing more than a horse is NOT ‘draft’ nor ‘the hotbloods- Arabian, Thoroughbred, Akhal Teke, possibly more’.

European Warmblood (Sporthorse) usually implies a horse found in the various recognized registries of the Federations devoted to their recording.

[SmartAlex]

There you are D_B_S!

[Cumano]

D_Baldstockings, I understand it is what you are saying, and although it might be a supposition, it remains a supposition that seems to be widely supported. As for your article, the original article date back to 1999, but it was updated a published again in 2008, as mentionned in that latter version you shared. I am not a scientific and will not try to argue on scientific aspect of it, I can only report what I read and heard.

This being said, my maine point is not about that. Of course the warmblood is not a pure breed as it would be described, lets say, by the kennel club. But it remains the result of evolution of regional mare base through selective breeding. It is not simply the cross between a cold blooded horse and a hot blooded horse. Warmbloods and draft horses may have evoluated in parallel, but one is not an evolution or a cross with the other.

Today, when people refer to a warmblood, I do not believe they refer to anything that is not hot blooded or cold blooded. A warmblood is a result of a long selection process and is now a specific horse. Going back to the original article, It is clear by the picture that the horse is a draught cross and not a warmblood by looking only at the neck and the shoulder. I would put money on the table that if we saw this horse in a video, he would have no trot and no canter, and would probably not be able to jump the width of an oxer in a course anthing higher than 1m10.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=roseymare;8203091]
I thought the argument was whether the term warmblood could be used in the historical/educational/evolutionary concept as term to describe a cross between a draft horse (cold blood) and an Arabian or Thoroughbred (hot blood). People seemed to be saying that was a completely made up definition. [/QUOTE]

I think the point of the article was that the writer felt that people looked down their noses at a draft cross in the hunter ring because he’s not a popular branded European Warmblood, and someone told her to call him an “American Warmblood”. The breedism stands whether you are riding a legitimate American breed like a ASB or QH vs. say a Holsteiner

Then we started arguing over whether he is or isn’t. He’s a draft cross. There are numerous successful American warmblood breeds developed from hot/cold blood mixing. Calling an F1 draft/TB a warmblood is where we REALLY start arguing semantics.

[Cumano]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;8203480]
I think the point of the article was that the writer felt that people looked down their noses at a draft cross in the hunter ring because he’s not a popular branded European Warmblood, and someone told her to call him an “American Warmblood”. The breedism stands whether you are riding a legitimate American breed like a ASB or QH vs. say a Holsteiner

Then we started arguing over whether he is or isn’t. He’s a draft cross. There are numerous successful American warmblood breeds developed from hot/cold blood mixing. Calling an F1 draft/TB a warmblood is where we REALLY start arguing semantics.[/QUOTE]

As you may have understood, I am a passionate of the Warmblood and of breeding. I understand the semantic question was a secondary issue in this discussion.

Going back to the original point, I think it is important to keep in mind that the Hunter is a judged sport, just as, let say, gymnastics, figure skating or dressage. Anytime you have a sport that is judged, of course the first impression and the personnal preferances of the judge will have some importance. In the hunter ring, we must admit that the technical aspect is not as important as in Dressage, so the “esthetic” perception has a very important place in the final judgement. Todays judges are looking for a certain standard, with the daisy cutting canter, the quick and perfect front hand, etc. The cross draft generaly do not necessarly fit into this mold and that is why, I believe it has 2 strikes against it in the hunter ring. I don’t think it is about snobisme or “breedism”, it is simply about how the sport evolved. Just as an example, there have been many QH and APH who were very succesfull in higher level hunters.

In the jumper ring, the crossed horse will generally have less athletic abilities at a certain level. When the courses get higher, and when the courses become more technical, they will have a disadvantage on a purposly bred sport horse. But is the horse is good at what he does, and the rider have fun working with it, that is what is important.

[Ambitious_Kate]

I don’t understand. A first generation cross cannot be a breed, right? Because they don’t breed true. A first generation cross can come out looking like anthything - and a full sibling would look like a different animal all together. And each, bred to a similar cross, would not breed their own characteristics, nor keep those down the line. So, no, they aren’t a breed.

Warmbloods have been selectively bred for hundreds of years to yield a type which can be characterized in their respective breeds. Also, I am gleaning that Warmbloods may actually have a non-draft heritage.

So why would anyone one believe that crossing a cold blood and a hot blood would result in Warmblood? That’s not what warm blood is. Correct? Nobody thinks that’s what Warmblood is - except some people who don’t know any better?

Am I also gleaning from this thread that there is an entire American registry defined by the crossing of horses with drafts calling themselves warmbloods? That would mean that the ignorance is widespread? And that these horses aren’t even a breed. OK. Just sorting this out. Explains the confusion things I’ve seen about American Warmbloods.

[Lady_Eboshi]

What’s the debate? Ride what you can afford, that’s suitable for what you want to do! In the hunting field, a draft cross is a great choice and will fit right in. Want to do dressage, get a WB or you’ll be swimming against an already daunting tide.
Yeah, every horse can “do” it, but you want to pin or just pay an entry fee? Ditto the show hunters. You can show up on your drafty, Pintabian, QH or STB, but he’d better be a damn superior specimen to beat all those horses who were purpose-bred. As to how we “got here from there,” it’s a matter of historical record. Deb Bennett’s book Conquerors is a good history of the origin and type of most North American (and European) horse breeds.

While square pegs CAN occasionally be pounded into round holes, they are the exception that proves the rule.

[OveroHunter]

[QUOTE=fannie mae;8202647]
The co-owner of the barn that trained Rocky says, “That is a horse I would take into war.” And he is right.

nothing wrong with that.
exactly what they were initially invented for.[/QUOTE]

Oh yeah… The horse I had hoped would be my “warmblood” when I was 20 years old was a paint/percheron cross. She wouldn’t jump a damn thing, lifted her knees higher than I though possible while still trotting so slow, but damn if she wouldn’t bulldoze her way through anything. Jumps, fences, people, other horses… She would have made one fine war horse :lol:

Show horse? Yeah… No.

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=Cumano;8203495]
AI don’t think it is about snobisme or “breedism”, it is simply about how the sport evolved. Just as an example, there have been many QH and APH who were very succesfull in higher level hunters. [/QUOTE]

Snobism is when a daisy cutting perfect QH hunter beats a warmblood fair and square and the warmblood riders pull their skirts aside and say “well it still isn’t a warmblood”.

[zipperfoot]

http://www.forresthillfarm.com/

This breeder/trainer seems to be turning out some talented horses that are draft/TB crosses (with some European warmblood blood in some cases). Nice horses!

Maybe the draft/TB (“American warmblood”) fans are working toward developing a true warmblood type similar to those developed in Europe. We could just be seeing the early stages of their efforts. Or they could just like draft/TB crosses.