I believe every life form has the right to choose not to live, for what ever reason they desire. It is THEIR life.
No one has the right to decide that another person MUST live so that they - the preventing person - don’t experience something unpleasant: grief, loss, or the good old “so what, suck it up princess” which has been so grossly applied by a poster here.
My mother has been loosely in hospice care for multiple years at this point after having a few more acute phases. The individual programs vary for sure and the individual needs vary. We are able to use a program that is very flexible for which I am profoundly grateful.
But here’s your study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17349493/#:~:text=For%20the%20six%20patient%20populations,cancer%20(P%3D0.08).
I am obviously quite biased in this discussion, and I know I need to work better on stepping back when I’m triggered.
I am not disputing the opinion that the system is flawed, I’m disputing the assumption that this was a large part of Caroline’s decision (her letter is all we know, but it didn’t slant that way). I’m also disputing the fact that it was Caroline’s responsibility to suck it up in an ablest world so that other’s won’t see death as an acceptable easy way out. That is not really any of our business to judge, or lay any responsibility on her.
She’s bringing in a ‘nuanced opinion’ that was brought in as a judgement on a deemed character flaw.
I do not think that is what Darkmoon is saying as much as Darkmoon is expressing her thoughts and fears of how society will now think disabled people are disposable.
That is all.
You are triggered your way, and she is triggered her way.
Indeed. I’m going to take a break and back off. I’m not meaning to get so riled. This topic is so close to home, and I do tend to get so defensive. Apologies @darkmoonlady - I’m going to accept differences and move on.
@enjoytheride you won’t see it being publicly spoken about, because theoretically if she travelled outside the UK and family members or friends travelled to be with her, then they would potentially be facing criminal charges themselves…
But people online are calling her committing suicide due to her disability as “inspirational” saying that if they couldn’t ride they’d make the same choice. Isn’t that kind of the same thing? Would she want young people to be inspired to make the same choice?
I had a bunch of other things typed out that I deleted because it’s been covered by @endlessclimb, @EADoug, and others, and I don’t think a pile on is necessary or helpful here.
However, I wanted to point out Caroline’s own words:
Just because you don’t agree with my decision doesn’t make what I’ve done wrong
Your point that her statement was public is accurate, but her statement explained her choice to her family, friends, and supporters - nothing more. It did not advocate for anything other than the benefits of free individual choice.
I do agree that she opened the conversation with her letter, and it’s part of why I think it’s appropriate to discuss it on this thread - she was clearly comfortable with this being a broader topic of conversation. But I do not think she was obligated to “stick around for the debate” at a cost to herself.
Sure, but I don’t think we should just assume that she travelled outside of the UK, spoke with Drs, they decided she was of sound mind to make that decision, and then assisted her. Which is what a lot of people are doing so they can call it “voluntarily passing” and not “suicide.” She could have done that. Or she could have had a bout of depression and made that choice., or she could have been sound of mine and made the choice on her own and shared/not shared with her family. I don’t really take her word as valid or invalid, I just know that people who are going to commit suicide often lie about their depression to friends, loved ones, and Drs.
I don’t necessarily think that what she did was WRONG, but I find it concerning that so many people find what she did inspirational and that I have seen many posts from young adults saying if they couldn’t ride they’d do the same thing.
It’s a sensitive subject because as equestrians we can’t imagine our lives NOT riding and I think that since the discussion was opened we should be able to discuss it, even if that discussion is difficult.
I think you’re misinterpreting those comments and/or taking them out of context. It’s hard to respond to a general perception of online comments, but I think they are inspired by the fact that she was being authentic to what she wanted and how she lived her life.
Again, I disagree with the idea that simply because someone is a member of a certain group, including the disabled, that they have to live their life as an example for other members of that group.
I’m not familiar with Caroline March. Did she have an equestrian accident? It sounds like she was incredibly brave.
I want to say too - if this gives someone the strength to say “you know, I don’t want to live like this” instead of being guilted into being alive solely for the benefit of others, good.
I believe she was a high level eventer who had a fall and was paralysed from waist down and
wheelchair bound. 31 yrs. old.
So many mixed emotions on this.
I do think its interesting that it is being assumed and talked about as “voluntarily assisted”, but I am not sure anyone knows that for certain. I feel like the conversation would be very different if her death was labeled “suicide”.
It’s been reported by legitimate news sources that is was assisted suicide as well as her family members. It is a legal, recognized medical procedure in several countries/provinces that has stringent governances. Medical professionals willing to participate in assisted suicide are very conscious of their responsibilities to their patient and their oath.
I applaud her for making the decision for herself and being brave enough to follow through. Her decision should be talked about. It’s a human right and a personal peace plan. It’s body autonomy and, yes, it’s suicide. A kind, peaceful, organized suicide.
It’s not much different than an advanced directive, but we’re all up in arms because she admitted to struggling with mental health in the past - that in itself is part of the problem…
She made it very clear that her decision was much more than just the fact that she couldn’t ride. That was the purpose of her letter.
If it were a violent, traumatic suicide we’d be mourning her instead of celebrating her, that is true. Is it wrong to celebrate her life?
I won’t argue that it was an emotional decision, but realistically what could anyone have done to help her? She was trapped in her body, wanting a life she had but could never have again. She didn’t want to live her life that way. So isn’t it better that we speak highly of her, about how brave she was, instead of how sorry we were for her? That’s the argument of “Death in Dignity.”
ETA: I’m not trying to be coy. I think it’s important to discuss this from all angles.
I don’t think this is wrong but I think it’s because the circumstances around the two tend to be quite different.
I don’t remember the exact statistic so I’m not going to quote it, but a significant proportion of suicides are the result of impulsive decisions rather than a deliberate plan. They aren’t carefully considered, their impacts aren’t discussed with other people, there is no deep dive into the reasoning behind the choice, and a lot of them happen as a result of easy accessibility of things that can quickly cause death (ahem firearms*) because the person isn’t slowed down by having to figure out how to do it (and thus having enough time pass for the impulse to fade, which can then allow them to go get the help they need).
MAiD/human euthanasia, by and large, is not an impulsive decision. It’s the result of someone making an active and deliberate choice for themselves over a significant length of time with the input of medical professionals and (most likely) loved ones, to determine that the person is of sound mind and able to conclude that it’s the right choice for them personally.
In a lot of ways the tragedy around both situations is the glaring indictment of physical and mental healthcare in a lot of parts of the globe, and the resources available (or, more accurately, not available) if you aren’t neurotypical and able-bodied, but that by no means makes Caroline’s choice a tragedy as a consequence.
*In high school I lost a schoolmate (the younger cousin of my brother’s best friend) due to suicide by firearm. My comment above is not said to be flippant. I say this because he might still be here if he hadn’t had ready access to firearms in that moment and his parents have dedicated themselves to the causes of gun control and gun safety in the decade-plus since.
Thank you for saying this - I think there is a lot of nuance between some of these perspectives.
We can support each individual’s bodily autonomy and right to make decisions about their bodies and lives based on the future they envision.
At the same time, we can recognize that those decisions are not made in a vacuum, and many people are considering the world (society and personal network) they live in to assess what that future would be. And there are many ways in which we could do better.
There was a fascinating article on this topic in Slate by Khin Myint published last week. I won’t link it since it’s not horse related, but it was written about a young woman suffering from a mysterious mental/physical illness and the ethics surrounding her case, since it was unknown whether she could have improved or been cured.
This is so true! There are so many barriers to entry with people who have differing abilities. An exercise I like to do often to think about my workplace and landscape is to see how I can get from one place to another in a wheelchair. There are certain buildings you could never get inside! You automatically have to work so much harder.
In her own words, she didn’t want to be inspirational in life, and I don’t think she’s inspirational in death. She certainly had the right to end her life as she chose, as does anyone.
It’s important to acknowledge that people have the right to make choices about their own lives, including how they choose to live or end them. It’s also valid to have differing opinions about those choices.
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