I spent just a few minutes on youtube looking for videos of Buck riding one of his bridle horses but didn’t really find anything. The best place to see him is at one of his clinics. Before the afternoon class - generally - he works one of his finished horses as the clinic participants watch in awed silence. You will see a bit of everything from lateral work to collection, to extensions. And there’s no tail wringing, hard eyes, pinned ears or other signs of discomfort or unhappiness. I would compare it to watching a dressage master - yes, different saddle but the unity and beauty are just amazing.
I ride my mare in both a Wade tree Western saddle and a Schleese Obrigado. The only thing that changes is what kind of boots I put on I get the same movement, sternum lift, etc. But as I said before, my goals are not competition related, and possibly the OP’s goals are more that direction.
This is my point to the OP and why I asked what were her goals.
The work taught by BB is very applicable to all horses if you want to develop a nice riding horse which you take into a dressage test to demonstrate your harmony and the first directive of the dressage rules,
[INDENT]
DR101 Object and General Principles of Dressage
The object of dressage is the development of the horse into a happy athlete through harmonious education. As a result, it makes the horse calm, supple, loose and flexible, but also confident, attentive and keen, thus achieving perfect understanding with the rider.
These qualities are demonstrated by:
a. The freedom and regularity of the gaits;
b. The harmony, lightness and ease of the movements;
c. The lightness of the forehand and the engagement of the hindquarters, originating from a lively impulsion; d. The acceptance of the bit, with submissiveness/throughness (Durchlässigkeit) without any tension or resistance.
The horse thus gives the impression of doing, of its own accord, what is required. Confident and attentive, submitting generously to the control of the rider, remaining absolutely straight in any movement on a straight line and bending accordingly when moving on curved lines.
[/INDENT]
However if you want to show in what is now becoming “Big Lick Dressage”…then that is a whole 'nother ball game.
I have the 7 clinics series DVD’s, and BB has an exercise on one of them, that involves slowly walking toward the horse, while asking for half circles in front of you, while you are walking forward. Hard to describe. Ask the horse to do a half circle in front of you, back and forth, while you slowly walk forward. It’s really hard, at least for me. The horse is supposed to move back and forth, smoothly.
I have discovered, that when I put too much pressure on my mare, and walk forward too fast, she will squat back on her haunches and roll back to the other direction. I think that when I mess up like this, she just exaggerates what she thinks I want/what’s supposed to happen. I think in that exercise, she is supposed to engage to the turn, but not to the point of roll back.
So many things on the BB info are so subtle. You have to study every small thing he does. I starting to think that some of his cues are just like “I have a little more weight on this hipbone now” kinds of things, or even “Good horse has learned to read my mind!”
I find this thread so interesting on so many levels! I do think some aren’t understanding my question at it’s core, I could reframe it but from being an avid reader of Coth, I know that when people are passionate about something they have a harder time reading something objectively. I get it, although I do enjoy a more open minded conversation.
Either way it’s always fun to discuss and try to learn something from any side of the conversation
I will say that I don’t know enough about who the western folk want the horse to plant his inside hind foot and spin on that (for most of a circle). I know they don’t want to pirouette. There is good reason in the working ranch horse’s repertoire for staying still with his hind end. If he moves forward, he has allowed the cow he is holding to move forward down the rail as well, and that’s not what’s desired. Perhaps these horses built downhill still look downhill to you? I would imagine, however, that they are lifting up their front end in order to turn on their haunches just like more uphill-built horses do.
This cowboy is not doing dressage when he is on his horse…but in my eye, he rides the “dressage horse” with more empathy towards the horse than the “dressage rider.”
@pluvinel not sure who either of the either riders are, I can’t see the video super clearly but don’t come to the same conclusion from what is in that clip.
Anyways, what does that have to do with any of this discussion?
@pluvinel I absolutely think Buck B is a LOVELY, talented rider. Hands down. And growing up riding Western, I think Western riders are just as capable of riding well as anyone else…
I’ve seen great Dressage riders, I’ve seen some awful ones. I’ve seen great hunter jumpers, I’ve seen some awful ones. I’ve seen some great barrel racers and some awful ones.
This isn’t a dressage vs Western riding thread. This was some people in my area every much believe that Buck B or Vaquero riding IS Dressage. I see similarities, sure. Could some of it be used with a dressage horse? Sure… If you follow the system soley then will you get an upper level Dressage horse? I can’t see how you would. I haven’t seen anyone do it anyways.
It just really seems to me that while you can incorporate some into your training, it’s best to really understand what you are doing. As with most things.
So glad you posted that video. I had seen it awhile back and I, too, though the western rider gave the dressage horse a smoother ride. Didn’t love seeing him ride the horse in a leverage bit two-handed. But maybe that was because the dressage rider would have the easiest time not being asked to ride only with his left hand. I’ll bet the mouthpiece was broken, too.
Really interesting, too, to compare the spins and pirouettes produced by each rider on each horse. I raise this since I had a question about how a western horse can do a “turn on the haunches” and also be on the forehand. I thought the cowboy got plenty of lift from his level-built horse in his spin. The dressage rider left the horse a little lower in front (sometimes) and he started to get that “coke bottle” spin that you don’t want. I do think part of the problem with the coke bottle spin (center of rotation slips forward to the horse’s barrel and is no longer around the hind end, is that they do lean down on those front legs when they are on the ground for longer than they should.
Meh, I think that’s just a rider not familiar with how a reiner must go.
I do think that folks have a real advantage if they live in an area where they can see many Vaquero-type riders. Same goes for seeing top-end dressage trainers and riding as opposed to those who are less educated. If you aren’t comparing the top of each style of horsemanship, I don’t think you are talking in an apples-to-apples way.
Ok, after seeing this thread over a couple days, I’ll bite.
Lunabear, I think it all comes down to how you define dressage - do you mean:
produce an excellent riding horse, that can get through a training/first level test? or,
develop a horse's gaits to its maximum capacity in terms of elasticity, suspension, impulsion, and collection? (consistent with the contemporary standards of FEI dressage.)
Because I would guess that Buck and his peers can certainly do the former, but likely not the latter (without guidance on how to do that).
I’m currently moving my mare up the levels (schooling third level now, with FEI capabilities and goals), and the overwhelming emphasis in my training is not about figures, or obedience, or teaching movements - it’s about developing more activity, more elasticity, more thrust, more collection, more from her natural athleticism. I do almost no “dressage movements”, unless they are part of the exercise (i.e., we do shoulder in not because that’s in the test, but because it develops engagement, etc.).
I don’t imagine Buck and peers place much emphasis on developing the gaits in this manner in their training. If the goal is to ride a nice first level test, I’m almost sure they could produce that - any remotely talented trainer could. It’s pretty straightforward stuff.
An example - I have a friend that rides quarter horses (mostly western, but I think the type of saddle is largely irrelevant). She is a beautiful, tactful, sensitive rider, and wants to do dressage. Unfortunately her understanding is about that of a training/first level rider - develop a connection, the horse must be forward, then you ride your pattern accurately. She doesn’t understand that that is only sufficient at first level - the horse must develop more thrust and sit in order to succeed above that. She thinks (like many not in the sandbox) that its about teaching movements (changes, half-pass, etc.,) and if riding those correctly, the necessary thrust and sit will naturally come with it. She doesn’t understand how much emphasis is put on actively developing those gaits, independent of the movements you would need to ride a test.
I’ve seen “western” trainers train nicer lower level horses then some “dressage” trainers, so at the lower levels, I think it doesn’t really matter. A nicely trained riding horse is pretty discipline un-specific. But I have yet to see a non-dressage-developed horse (with the possible exception of working equitation horses) that I thought could go into an FEI ring and be successful. (It is entirely possible that I’m wrong, and, if motivated, Buck could develop that kind of horse.)
In all, I think if your goal is to ride above Second level dressage, I would never train with someone who doesn’t specialize in it (save the rare jumper trainer that has ridden and competed in FEI level work - less common in the US than overseas). They just wouldn’t understand the importance of developing (or even how to develop) the non-test components of dressage (why it’s not just a head set, why it’s so much more than riding an accurate figure/movement).
Anyway, I hope this addressed some of your question, in-eloquent as I may be!
With the caveat that many lower level dressage riders don’t develop the gaits either.
By which I don’t mean just trying for the biggest trot. I mean reach and rhythm and cadence and eventually suspension to your horse’s ability. My coach does work on this. I’ve watched a lot of horses make progress in their overall way of moving. Including horses with average gaits get more correct, even if never flashy.
But I see other riders already working on things like half pass trot, flying changes, collection as they understand it. Horses they’ve been schooling for five years in some cases. Horses with natural talent. But the horses still move like green uneducated horses in terms of the quality of gaits.
And that’s why they are lower level riders, and often stay there. They don’t understand or know how to develop their horse’s gaits.
By which I don’t mean just trying for the biggest trot. I mean reach and rhythm and cadence and eventually suspension to your horse’s ability. My coach does work on this. I’ve watched a lot of horses make progress in their overall way of moving. Including horses with average gaits get more correct, even if never flashy.
Correct riding will have that effect on gaits. Just doing corners properly is one big thing to understand. I ride my friend’s horse a few times per month, and as good as she is as a rider, she has no clue yet on how to do correct, let’s say to reach higher level, corners. We have the same trainer, so she’ll get there, but it is details like that that separates riders. At least, she understands and sees the difference, she’s just not skilled enough in her half halt yet to produce good corners.
But I see other riders already working on things like half pass trot, flying changes, collection as they understand it. Horses they’ve been schooling for five years in some cases. Horses with natural talent. But the horses still move like green uneducated horses in terms of the quality of gaits.
I see this as a circle where you do some movements, come back to basics, and learn some more movements, then back to basics again, then you understand the reach of each movements, then your basics are even better and then you progress substantially from novice to intermediate rider and then you go back to basics and so on… Same goes for the training of the horse. That’s how you get 7yrs old to PSG and up.
…bearing in mind that the modern day well bred dressage horse has a lot of the thrust, impulsion and elevation bred into him. Not all horses are even capable of it.
I haven’t read every page but here are my thoughts on your first post and the one I quoted. (I read MVP’s post and I feel it is right on.)
I have ridden with Buck a few times and with his SIL a few times as well. I’ve also ridden with Ellen Eckstein who is a dressage trainer who rode primarily with Tom Dorrance.
I absolutely hear your question about contact and also the leg cues for turning horses. The first clinic I rode in with Buck I noticed the leg cues for turning were EXACTLY opposite what I had been taught, inside leg at the girth outside leg behind the girth. It confused the hell out of me. For a while I actually switched my legs (if THAT wasn’t an exercise in self discipline, it took forever and I never got totally solid at it.) I’ve kind of settled somewhere in the middle where whatever or wherever my leg is on a horse they need to yield, which is basically what it’s all about anyway right?
As far as contact, you are correct in that he doesn’t want a horse truly “in your hand” as we generally think of it. The ‘soft feel’ is indeed, very very soft. I’ve also come to ride my horses very soft but also ‘there’. With a regular cavesson. It’s been a thing with me that if I need more than a regular cavesson I need to fix what is going on.
There is a good book/dvd called “Bringing it Together” which addresses a lot of what you are asking. It’s short but sweet.
Ellen (Eckstein) teaches that picking up a contact is the first cue for a horse to move forward and encourages that first movement to be with the hind leg. As it gets refined it basically asks for more engagement just by a slight lifting of the rein later on.
It’s really cool, thought provoking stuff. It’s made me think outside of the box much quicker. I’m definitely more of a ‘journey’ kind of person with goals rather than a goal person no matter how I get there. I have three homebreds that I have started and brought along this way. The groundwork is invaluable and there is always a higher level of responsiveness to be attained. Bottom line, Buck’s philosophy is always to “get to the feet”. If you can’t control the feet you can’t control anything else. Do as little as possible and as much as necessary. Always offer the horse the good deal first.
I get the same movement, sternum lift, etc. But as I said before, my goals are not competition related, and possibly the OP’s goals are more that direction.
