" Buck B Horsemanship"/Vaquero style/Bridle horse = Dressage?

[mvp]

@DLee

I absolutely hear your question about contact and also the leg cues for turning horses. The first clinic I rode in with Buck I noticed the leg cues for turning were EXACTLY opposite what I had been taught, inside leg at the girth outside leg behind the girth. It confused the hell out of me. For a while I actually switched my legs (if THAT wasn’t an exercise in self discipline, it took forever and I never got totally solid at it.) I’ve kind of settled somewhere in the middle where whatever or wherever my leg is on a horse they need to yield, which is basically what it’s all about anyway right?

On that bass-akward leg cue topic. I know, right? It’s so hard to do what Brannaman (and some of his students who have taught me while mounted) do if you were taught to ride as we were!

But here’s my take on that: IMO, the sliding your inside heel way back is not about an aid on the horse’s abdominal line on the inside. That is where I see these tall men touching their short horses with a spur. The point is not about touching the horse with the spur back there Rather, I think that leg position is about making absolutely sure that the inside sitting bone is light and off the horse. Remember that lots of western riders want to kick their feet out in front of them. If you had contact in your inside hand and had that same toe out in front of you, chances are, you’d be resting hard on that inside sitting bone. Your knee might not be straight and locked, but I’ll bet you have some tension in that leg and are bracing against the stirrup a bit. And if that is so, your sitting bone does not feel like something a horse wants to relax his back into.

I discovered this just by doing as I was instructed with a pretty good, nice-guy of a student of Brannaman’s who was local to me when I lived in Oregon’s Willamette Valley. I knew that this was one piece of his training that was too far off my over-all goal for my dressage horse. So I tried to figure out a way to ride here and get the right turns done without kicking my heel back. What I did worked ok. But then coming from English world, I have pretty good awareness of my sitting bones and how to move my leg in a way that does, or does not put weight on a sitting bone. I talked about it a bit with the pro and, being a nice guy, he didn’t tell me I was way wrong about the “real” aid or effect accomplished by moving that inside leg so far back. But I explain all this so that you are aware that I’m just making my own hypothesis about it.

If I ever get a dedicated bridle horse project (and a guru to go with it), AND if I learn why this inside leg way back is logical or worth doing, I’ll let you guys know.

[Scribbler]

@Foxtrot's

…bearing in mind that the modern day well bred dressage horse has a lot of the thrust, impulsion and elevation bred into him. Not all horses are even capable of it.

My point about improving the gaits is that any horse can achieve better rhythm, stride, impulsion, lift, relative to what they present as a green horse. They might not be spectacular but they are more correct and move better.

My mare being a case in point. We have gone from a lazy walk to a big stride, and from a sewing machine almost fox trot to a normal working trot over several years.

I then see horses with much bigger lofty natural strides than she has, being schooled in ways that give them a pony trot, no over step, falling on the forehand, etc.

So you can also school in ways that deteriorate the gaits too.

[Lunabear1988]

@DLee that’s how I see it. Seems like it can certainly be used in Dressage. I wasn’t familiar with Ellen but looked her up. It sounds like she’s had a very good education all around. And is accomplished with accomplished students. I’d be more inclined to follow her guidance with faith!

The trainers here, one shows but has no scores at all. None of their students are accomplished either. And I just don’t see them going in a productive path, Dressage wise. Now this could just be because someone can only learn so much in a clinic with Buck once a year.

The other doesn’t compete. He’s not a terrible rider, he’s soft and kind. Great with troubled horses. Had taught piaffe ect. Although all the horses go around with hollow backs, behind the vertical… Ect

So I think another thing that puzzles me is education. Or lack of education. Competition isn’t important to me but I do like to know who I’m listening to knows what they are talking about and can also help others progress. I definitely will use some of what Buck teaches. But if any of the accomplished, correct and respected Dressage trainers I ride with say that I should not use a certain technique anymore, I’ll be inclined to listen.

Thanks for the wonderful discussion!